If they will not meet us on the open sea (a Trent TL)

Saphroneth

Banned
My idea with Hull 290 is that by the time the RN was interested in convoy escorts they realized they'd made pretty close to a clean sweep of the US heavy vessels.
The Laird Rams might have the treatment you describe, though, as the RN calculates out how long the Union took to build their ironclads and decides they need more ironclad hulls for a potential war resumption. Might put that in the update, actually.
 
My idea with Hull 290 is that by the time the RN was interested in convoy escorts they realized they'd made pretty close to a clean sweep of the US heavy vessels.
I think your views are valid, and it's certainly not worth retconning. That being said, when I took the data for Royal Navy ship status on 5 January 1862 and correlated it to likely wartime requirements, the biggest problem was a shortage of sloops. The issue was compounded when I decided I wanted to beef up the force on the Great Lakes by taking some of the sloops down the canals. As an 8-gun sloop with a 110pdr Armstrong as the fore pivot gun, escorting convoys or serving on the blockade, HMS Enrica would have filled a gap nicely.
 
12-17 August 1862

Saphroneth

Banned
12 August

William Palliser begins a sequence of experiments to test how well his shot performs against targets which are not in factory-fresh shape - wondering whether, perhaps, the effects of salt water on the iron of a ship's sides are quantifiable.

His armour-penetrating shot performs well, especially when he fires rounds from the 100-lber Somerset Cannon he has obtained from testing, but the most notable result actually comes from some of the control shots - Palliser has made full use of the ironclad building program and has obtained a dozen rejected plates from the same batch (hence of the same quality), and as some of his experiments compared AP shot to conventional shot and rusted armour to pristine armour, the treated plates were soaked over a period of weeks in a mine.

Owing to a slight mixup, one of the untreated plates also kept in the mine is tested, and it produces significantly different results than the plates which were kept in the open - in fact, it allows a projectile into the backing where the 'control' plate (which has been out in the hot summer sun) resisted competently.

Palliser will chase up this effect over the following weeks, and conclude that for iron armour temperature is immensely important for resistance - in fact, in going from 32 Fahrenheit to 100 Farenheit (both temperatures a battle is possible at), the energy absorbed by the armour doubles!

13 August

The CSS Alabama sails into Gosport, captained by Bulloch. This leads to considerable surprise, as the Confederate Congress had essentially lost track of their naval procuring agent and indeed had forgotten about the procurement of the Alabama entirely.

On the same date, further Confederate naval surprise is curtailed somewhat when the Admiralty - having taken the construction time of the United States ironclads and extrapolated, with some unjustified alarm - concludes that in the event of a resumption of the war they may face as many as eight more Union ironclads of this class or dozens of smaller ones. They thus begin plans for a second-generation small ironclad, armed with a Coles turret to mount a Somerset gun or similar heavy anti-armour piece, though are somewhat surprised to discover that Laird already has two half-finished turret rams of an appropriate design (Hulls 294 and 295) and make preparations to purchase not only the ships but the design. (Laird successfully avoids censure by pointing out that no ship was launched by the yard in breach of neutrality regulations, as by the time the Alabama and the rams were under construction the British were already at war with the Union.)

15 August

The Vanderbilt's captain is confronted by the local Ottoman governor, and informed he is seriously outstaying his welcome. When the Union officer protests, the governor emphasizes his point by pointing out to sea - where the Mahmudiye is visible on the horizon.
Steam versus sail or no, the idea of confronting a 128-gun first rate is enough to tip the balance in the mind of Vanderbilt's captain, and he (reluctantly) has his ship head back out to sea.
Vanderbilt shapes her course for Benghazi, intending to pick up a prize or two before heading back into the Aegean to hide. This time the captain thinks Santorini might be a better bet.

17 August

With the belated arrival of the Prussian representative, the peace conference at Havana begins.
It does not start well, with the three powers in question putting forward completely incompatible and often risible initial negotiating positions.

The British ask for Oregon Country, the Red River area, all the islands that have been in dispute at any point in the past eighty years, the Lake of the Woods area, Michigan, the south of the St Lawrence, essentially all of Maine, an indemnity and the Right of Search. And an apology.

The Confederacy ask for every single state in the United States with legal slavery, the area of Kansas Territory, the southern half of California, New Mexico Territory, a transcontinental railroad and an indemnity. And Washington DC.

The Union's position is that the Confederacy will only be permitted to have the states of Florida, Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, Tennessee, Arkansas, both Carolinas and Virginia, excluding West Virginia (and ideally the land north of the Rappahanock). And that all former Federal forts will be returned to the Union government, that not a foot of territory will be given to the British, and that the San Juan islands be settled in their favour.
They also want an indemnity.

The Prussian envoy is seen rubbing his temples.
 
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Saphroneth

Banned
The Union surely can't delay overlong, though. Blockades and collapsing currencies tend to do that.
I have it pencilled in that they'll furlough a lot of soldiers to save money, and then some scare in late 1862 will make them want to try and bring them back - and they discover there's an appallingly bad return rate because most of those soldiers were being paid in low-value (paper) currency anyway and have basically just deserted. And that's what gets them to accept a fairly bad deal. (Though they may also need some deployable manpower to handle various peace demonstrations... and perhaps the odd more pointed riot in NY.)
 

Ryan

Donor
They also want an indemnity.

1b4s05.jpg
 

Saphroneth

Banned
And a few thoughts on the postwar Union and Confederate navies.

The OTL approach of the USN for the period 1865-1885 (basically coast on their remembered glory from the Civil War without any new construction or in many cases finishing ships at all) is simply not going to happen.
Their first priority will likely be a brown water (or even green water) navy, a priority they share with the CSA - control of the Mississippi (or Ohio), the Chesapeake (or Delaware) and the coast in general will be critical. This means shallow draft ironclads, probably with a mix of turret ships and broadside ships for the Union and a more pure-broadside focus for the Confederacy (at first, anyway...) and it also means plenty of gunboats with small numbers of heavy guns and supported by lighter guns (probably BL if they can get them).

The second priority is the really heavy ships, the ones designed to smash enemy ports and enemy heavy ships. One of the lessons of this war is that the best ship in the world is defenceless when it's blown up on the building slips, so port defence and attack are things I predict to be big priorities. (This also means modern and expensive forts, mine belts, all that. Of course, on average you need to modernize a fort pretty much by the time you finish it, so the will may fade over time and they might just be a bit out of date...) And heavy armour, big guns, double bottoms and moderate speed (especially for tactical purposes) are the way to go, with draft being a secondary concern as the "targets" are usually places with shipping channels.
Again, this is something they share with the Confederacy. The design goals might be "immune to all weapons deployed by the enemy beyond a range of 500 yards", but they're unlikely to get that - or to complete with the guns they're designed for. You'll also likely see some real whackjob vessels being built at this time - I wouldn't be surprised to see the Confederacy deploy a "Polyphemus" sort of ship once the motive torpedo comes in, or for that matter to see a Union floating battery with a torpedo broadside.

And then there's cruising ships. These run the gamut from commerce raiders (the Union will likely want several of them this time, building for speed more than firepower) to show-the-flag ships (for which you want endurance). But compared to the first two these cruisers are rather lower priority.


There is an interesting thing that's unlikely to show up, though. The ram as primary weapon hasn't had the OTL momentum built up yet, as it's been shown clearly that ironclads can be penetrated with good guns (and that's going to get a fairly major boost in 1863 or -4).
 
I have it pencilled in that they'll furlough a lot of soldiers to save money, and then some scare in late 1862 will make them want to try and bring them back - and they discover there's an appallingly bad return rate because most of those soldiers were being paid in low-value (paper) currency anyway and have basically just deserted. And that's what gets them to accept a fairly bad deal. (Though they may also need some deployable manpower to handle various peace demonstrations... and perhaps the odd more pointed riot in NY.)

It's not just a matter of the Federal Government paying in increasingly fiat (and untrusted) paper. There's also the matter of, well, the blockade and crashing currency effecting the people who aren't the government.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
It's not just a matter of the Federal Government paying in increasingly fiat (and untrusted) paper. There's also the matter of, well, the blockade and crashing currency effecting the people who aren't the government.
Yes, that's present as an effect as well. To some extent a government in total-war-mode can ignore that (witness the Confederacy OTL!) but the Union's getting to the point it's becoming painful - the Union blockade of OTL closed Mobile Bay in August 1864, the RN blockade became that tight pretty much on month two or three.
 
Yes, that's present as an effect as well. To some extent a government in total-war-mode can ignore that (witness the Confederacy OTL!) but the Union's getting to the point it's becoming painful - the Union blockade of OTL closed Mobile Bay in August 1864, the RN blockade became that tight pretty much on month two or three.

That is true. However, a Total-War Government generally doesn't mind that the country is burning down around them, because they're not worried about the Presidential Election. Or the Mid-Terms, for that matter.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
That is true. However, a Total-War Government generally doesn't mind that the country is burning down around them, because they're not worried about the Presidential Election. Or the Mid-Terms, for that matter.
The Union government at the moment has to be very worried about unrest in Baltimore - that's essentially their main route to the rest of the US, and even that was a bit tenuous during the Confederate siege.
 
Palliser will chase up this effect over the following weeks, and conclude that for iron armour temperature is immensely important for resistance - in fact, in going from 32 Fahrenheit to 100 Farenheit (both temperatures a battle is possible at), the energy absorbed by the armour doubles!
Has Palliser just accidentally found evidence for the Ductile to Brittle Transition?
 

Saphroneth

Banned
Has Palliser just accidentally found evidence for the Ductile to Brittle Transition?
Pretty much, yes. In retrospect it's surprising it wasn't discovered earlier, it's a huge effect on the efficacy of wrought iron armour that could in principle have been found with little more than good book keeping (and that was actually discovered by experimenting with Warrior's plate when she was turned into a jetty!)
 
Pretty much, yes. In retrospect it's surprising it wasn't discovered earlier, it's a huge effect on the efficacy of wrought iron armour that could in principle have been found with little more than good book keeping (and that was actually discovered by experimenting with Warrior's plate when she was turned into a jetty!)
Really? I thought it had been discovered due to cracking on the Liberty ships in WW2? In any case, an early discovery could impact things like the Titanic - it might be known, for instance, that the ship was operating too far north.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
Really? I thought it had been discovered due to cracking on the Liberty ships in WW2? In any case, an early discovery could impact things like the Titanic - it might be known, for instance, that the ship was operating too far north.
Oh, I checked my source and found I'd got the timing wrong (whoops!) - it was actually experimenting with Warrior's plate that was removed (and kept aboard) when she was turned into a jetty, but the actual tests were some decades later during the restoration process.
But yes, this should have some interesting results. The initial changes will be in warship armour and structure, of course, but there's other possible ones too...
 
The British ask for Oregon Country, the Red River area, all the islands that have been in dispute at any point in the past eighty years, the Lake of the Woods area, Michigan, the south of the St Lawrence, essentially all of Maine, an indemnity and the Right of Search. And an apology.

And the swivel chair...

 
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