If they will not meet us on the open sea (a Trent TL)

Saphroneth

Banned
Something else that should be noted is that it's theoretically possible for British gunboat raids to cut some railway bridges. (Here they did it to the bridge on, IIRC,the Kennebec river - basically it cut off Maine from the rest of the Union, which is why much of Maine is now occupied. I've not made a big deal of it because Maine is kind of a quiet front - Totten abandoned it as indefensible.)
 
So the US is hammered, the South wins the North is left with nothing but regrets. A sure path to a US that hates England, the South and France. All the US generals are unfit for command and all the Southern and English ones are always winners. Oh and California and Oregon as well as Washington will become part of Canada? I guess Grant, Sherman and Meade become outcasts. Sorry but I find this story line a little to far out there in never, never land. But even so it has been a good read.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
So the US is hammered, the South wins the North is left with nothing but regrets.
I'm afraid it does seem to be the inevitable outcome of the Trent war.

A sure path to a US that hates England, the South and France.
Not necessarily - no more than Prussia and Austria were sworn enemies for decades after 1864.

All the US generals are unfit for command and all the Southern and English ones are always winners.
Actually, the US generals have been doing rather well, considering - they're outnumbered in pretty much every single important battle, because the Union Army is 200,000 troops smaller and is facing 150,000 more enemies (in addition to the extra Confederates freed up from the coast being cleared, or the troops armed with weapons that OTL were sold to the Union instead of the Confederacy).
Grant's held out for months in Kentucky despite heavy outnumbering, McClellan just saved over half his army from a superior enemy who pulled a major strategic surprise on him, and even the generals in the New England area have avoided giving up much ground (apart from Maine, which Totten gave up as indefensible).
When you compare how they're doing TTL with a heavy numerical disadvantage, and juxtapose it with how they did OTL with a numerical advantage, they've acquitted themselves well compared to OTL! It would have been very easy to justify, for example, any one of the defeats during the period from March to June resulting in no Union troops between an attacker and a major industrial city...

Oh and California and Oregon as well as Washington will become part of Canada?
Where did you get that idea from? The British might press the British version of the Oregon claims at the peace conference, but no more than their OTL claim (the north of the Columbia, IIRC).

I guess Grant, Sherman and Meade become outcasts.
Not really, no. Grant's a respected if not especially important general, Sherman's not done anything especially noteworthy one way or the other, and Meade's saved DC from capture.
McClellan may not be vilified by history, though - his picture's more nuanced than OTL.

Sorry but I find this story line a little to far out there in never, never land.
I'm sorry you feel that - I've aimed for realism, or verisimilitude, as much as possible. The core of my thesis is the point that TTL the Union is roughly five to six hundred thousand small arms poorer and the Confederacy is much more able to arm and equip their troops, due to the reversal of who's blockaded - this leads in turn to the perennial Union problem with troop numbers compared to their Confederate counterparts. It also means that in pretty much every battle the Union troops are overwhelmingly armed with smoothbores, while over the course of the first half of 1862 the Confederacy is rearming with Enfields, Brunswicks, Minies, and all manner of actual rifles they never had enough of OTL.

In fact, I could sum it up roughly like this.


OTL Union army enlistments in first half of 1862 (June 30) was 700,000 nominal, 600,000 after desertions.
OTL they were facing about 425,000 troops after desertions (April 1862). So OTL was 600,000:425,000.

TTL the Union army is more like 430,000 after desertions due to lack of small arms (number approximate, could be lower and unlikely to be higher).
TTL they're facing about 450,000 Confederates (small net benefit due to better small arms, and this is measuring to June 1862), 50-60,000 British regulars, 100,000 Canadian militia, and the prospect of amphibious attacks on the coast.

So TTL is 430,000:610,000, and the average quality of the 610,000 is higher due to those British regulars. (So very roughly the relative number of Union soldiers compared to their enemies has halved.) Again, remember this is total enlistments being counted minus only desertions, and every battle lost for want of numbers or morale makes it worse for the Union - they can't replace what they lose because they also lose the muskets.


The funny thing is - I actually wondered if the Union would make it to June at all at one point, and so ignored some of the things which could have caused a collapse.
I'm no economics expert, but the Union at this point has been operating without any foreign trade save a much-reduced grain trade for over six months, and it's also lost all their gold from California - this is not a healthy economy, especially since OTL there was a bank run on the threat of war with Britain. The Union's done well TTL to keep going for six months... and what's really the killer here is that their gunpowder supplies are getting critical.

(For those wondering what happened to the DuPont purchase, the Confederates took what they could of it and are very happy with the results!)
 

Saphroneth

Banned
Another way to look at it is this - in Jan 1862 the Union had about 400,000 troops PFD (including extra duty, under arrest and sick) in places where, TTL, they would be available for general defence of the Union. OTL this expanded by 200,000 over the next six months.
Based on the numbers of rifles not-available TTL, they haven't got a huge amount more in the pipeline - perhaps enough for another 50,000 to 75,000 over the next few months, and after that the size of the Union army is a wasting asset even without a major battle (simply from muskets wearing out, which is made worse by how they're using very old weapons to achieve this).

At the same time, by the same definitions, the Confederacy had 280,000 Aggregate Present. Based on the numbers from OTL, they were still recruiting hard and this number goes up by a lot by April, in fact it goes up by over a hundred thousand (almost a hundred and fifty). It would not be impossible for Confederate Aggregate Present to hit 450,000 by June.
And the British have 122,000 in Canada by February - this is before further arms shipments and absent some regulars who were scheduled to go. By June this could be 160,000 or so, counting the Canadian militia, the Maritimes militia and about 50,000 British regulars.

Now, try and spread 450,000 troops out to cover all requirements! Remember, you need to fortify the coast too or the British will be able to land unopposed - and if a British force the size of the Crimean invasion force (20,000 or so) lands unopposed and can march inland you're kind of screwed.

Here's how I think the assignment could work out. First the situation in January, before anyone gets extra troops.


4500 California (unchanged)
4500 NM Territory (unchanged) facing 2500 Confederates (unchanged)
7500 Kansas (unchanged)
30000 Missouri (drawn down by 61000) facing 29000 Confederates (increased by 10000 from troops defending the Gulf coast)
72000 Kentucky (unchanged) facing 101000 Confederates (increased by 12000 from troops defending Louisiana)
19000 Shenandoah (unchanged) facing 14500 Confederates (increased by 5000 from troops defending the CS East Coast)
123000 Potomac (drawn down by 60000) facing 126000 Confederates (increased by 50000 from troops defending the CS East Coast)
10000 Confederates left on CS East Coast
Coastal Forts 40000 (increase by 30000) spread from New Hampshire to the Delmarva and Baltimore, facing the Royal Navy.
Canadian Frontier 96000 (increase by 91000) facing 76000 British regulars and militia (only officially formed troops).

This is very much the Union in defensive posture, it should be clear - pretty much everywhere things have gotten far worse.

Now, if we advance that to April, still assuming no battles - the Union has 60,000 more troops, but the Confederacy has an extra 120,000 and the British have an extra 55,000 - plus an expeditionary force on the West Coast:


4500 California (unchanged) facing 5000 British (+5000)
4500 NM Territory (unchanged) facing 2500 Confederates (unchanged)
7500 Kansas (unchanged)
30000 Missouri (unchanged) facing 49000 Confederates (+20000)
72000 Kentucky (unchanged) facing 121000 Confederates (+20000)
19000 Shenandoah (unchanged) facing 24500 Confederates (+10000)
173000 Potomac (+50000) facing 196000 Confederates (+70000)
10000 Confederates left on CS East Coast
Coastal Forts 30000 (-10000) spread from New Hampshire to the Delmarva and Baltimore, facing the Royal Navy.
Canadian Frontier 116000 (+20000) facing 131000 British regulars and militia (increased by 55000 reinforcements).


This is not necessarily what happened TTL, but it shows how hard the force assignment problem is for the Union - everything's much worse than OTL for them and they're outnumbered everywhere, and remember that the first half of 1862 is when OTL the Union secured control of Kentucky and made inroads into Tennessee. That simply doesn't happen with these kinds of force numbers, indeed they may have to effectively sacrifice the West to keep the East!
 
3-5 July 1862

Saphroneth

Banned
3 July

Amid jubilation in Richmond, the debates begin in the Confederate congress about what the Confederacy actually wants from the peace. Some of the fire-eaters insist on particularly large concessions - Minnesota, Arizona, California, everything south of the Mason-Dixon line, a transcontinental railway and an indemnity to boot - but Davis is more realistic on the matter, and over the next few days he begins to cajole the Confederate legislators into setting a priority list for what they want.

One thing is immediately clear - the states of the 'main' Confederacy (all slave states bar those called the border states) are not up for negotiation, excepting only for leaving open the possibility of adjusting the northern border of Confederate Virginia.
Davis is also canny - he tells the legislators they must make clear that the war is won when peace is signed, and not before. In other words, that as much as possible the Confederate States must not get complacent and let things fall apart now (by, for example, reducing their army size or pulling back from their positions).



4 July

Independence day celebrations in the United States are distinctly muted, but not as bad as one might think - the blockade has been painful, and the news of a potential peace has turned out to be more popular than anticipated. (Also, very few people are being shot at today, which is an improvement over the past few weeks.)

The fighting continues in California (which will not get the news for some days), but relatively little action is taking place even here - the most notable event is a minor skirmish at the town of Nevada in the Sierra Nevada (in California) between Indians (from Bengal) and Indians (from Nevada), which will briefly confuse students of history whenever they first learn about it.


5 July

The damage assessment on Charleston is complete - the ship's fighting value is seriously marred for service as a line of battle ship as she has taken so much structural damage, but the hull below the waterline is sound. As such, she is evaluated for conversion to a broadside ironclad - something impressive, as there is so much tonnage to work with!

The Vanderbilt stops a British trading vessel (the Gambia) south of Sardinia, and puts a prize crew aboard. The two ships sail to a cove on Sardinia, where Vanderbilt will take on supplies from the Gambia (including coal).
 
7-8 July 1862

Saphroneth

Banned
7 July

Congress orders a ban on military training involving the use of gunpowder for the duration of the ceasefire, based on Ordnance Department figures which show that their supply is extremely limited.
Plans are also put in place for what to do if the war resumes - one idea mooted is to ram a single large army through to Richmond, though this would be rather difficult with the Potomac essentially under Confederate control and no viable jumping off points. It would also entail stripping most regions entirely of their line troops - at this point the Union cannot hope to outnumber the Confederacy alone without shipments of arms which have not yet been manufactured - and entail considerable risk to say the least!


8 July

After a spectacular high speed crossing of the Atlantic by RMS Scotia, the news of the ceasefire arrives in Plymouth and is telegraphed to London. Palmerston is pleased, and the process of arranging the peace conference begins - thanks to the proliferation of the telegraph, Napoleon III has agreed to mediate within hours and Russia is being contacted about doing the same. Messages also go to Spain, and the peace conference is tentatively suggested to take place at Havana - subject to American approval.

Meanwhile, in the Confederate states, the ceasefire has meant that the government has a chance to actually govern properly (rather than existing in war crisis mode). For example, a fiery debate takes place on the ideal court structure for a confederation of states - the concept being reached that any court at the highest levels can only address cases which cannot be settled internally within a single state, and that that court of the highest levels should involve the deliberation of judges drawn from the individual states. That is, the Confederate "supreme" court is in fact the chief justices of the individual states acting as a combined body.
This system has several advantages, one of which being that it's not the one the Union uses!
 
Oh... I can't wait for the reaction when the USA realises that the UK really did not consider the CSA allies, and doesn't care about their demands.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
Oh... I can't wait for the reaction when the USA realises that the UK really did not consider the CSA allies, and doesn't care about their demands.
The funny thing is that that may not even come out at the peace conference - the British will be starting with harsh demands because they're expecting them to be whittled down in diplomacy, the Confederacy will be starting with harsh demands because, uh, they want them.
 
The funny thing is that that may not even come out at the peace conference - the British will be starting with harsh demands because they're expecting them to be whittled down in diplomacy, the Confederacy will be starting with harsh demands because, uh, they want them.

But the British might play the "Look, we don't care for the CSA. Agree to this, and we have a deal, and you are in a stronger position with the CSA" Card. They should realise that they can get a better deal if they reveal that hey don't care for the CSA.
 
I would not say that teh UK does NOT CARE for the CSA, but more they see no high priority to THEIR demands. But at this time I think the Limeys are happy that the USA is broken 2 nations are easier to handle than one... Divide et impera - so Britian might support the CSA in a limited way (especially to have later a lever against them)
 

Saphroneth

Banned
But the British might play the "Look, we don't care for the CSA. Agree to this, and we have a deal, and you are in a stronger position with the CSA" Card. They should realise that they can get a better deal if they reveal that hey don't care for the CSA.
That's the rub - what they actually want is the kind of thing Congress would give them without too much complaint to make things easier to cope with. Indeed, there's an argument that the British might accidentally end up with something they didn't really want.
 
That's the rub - what they actually want is the kind of thing Congress would give them without too much complaint to make things easier to cope with. Indeed, there's an argument that the British might accidentally end up with something they didn't really want.

"These terms are... Acceptable."

"Wait, really? You're not going to... I dunno, push back? Try and argue us down?"

"Nope."

"Well... Could you?"
 
I do wonder what the British will ask for here. They're obviously winning, and if the peace talks fail America is in even worse shape so it almost behooves them to take as much as they can without being punitive.

Northern Maine is a given, maybe the western north shore of Lake Superior, Oregon country north of the Columbia, maybe the Red River valley. The last and most contentious (and one they might not ask for), but probably most beneficial would be the south bank of the St. Lawrence. I think the Upper Peninsula of Michigan would add terrific strategic depth to Canada (as well as a huge economic boost) but I'm doubtful as to the British asking for it.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
My thinking is that they would ask for:

Apology
Right of Search
Southern St Lawrence
Northern Maine
Oregon Country (north of Columbia)
Michigan
That odd bit in Lake of the Woods
The San Juan Islands

With the priority being that they really want the apology and search right, and the odd bit in Lake of the Woods is pretty obvious as is the San Juan Islands - they're not very big.
They'd probably press the southern St Lawrence next, followed by Oregon Country, and Maine after that. Michigan is there for the shock value.
 
My thinking is that they would ask for:

Apology
Right of Search
Southern St Lawrence
Northern Maine
Oregon Country (north of Columbia)
Michigan
That odd bit in Lake of the Woods
The San Juan Islands

With the priority being that they really want the apology and search right, and the odd bit in Lake of the Woods is pretty obvious as is the San Juan Islands - they're not very big.
They'd probably press the southern St Lawrence next, followed by Oregon Country, and Maine after that. Michigan is there for the shock value.

That makes sense, but the north shore of Superior and the Red River area were settled by Treaty "relatively" recently in American favour. I can see them pushing for it just to rub America's nose in it.

Do you need to ask for the San Juan Islands when you ask for everything north of the Columbia..?
 
I find it odd that the British would ask for any territory. They want the war over quickly so trade can flow once again... Why make a lasting enemy of your largest trading partner?
 
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