If they will not meet us on the open sea (a Trent TL)

The fact is, he wants an independent South. If he didn't, he doesn't go to war; there's just no way to rationalize it otherwise. He's a smart man. He knows that the best way to put his whole anti-slave trade system in jeopardy is to help out a nation whose reason for being is slavery. So there are other values here which are more important to him.

The casus belli is very simple, the US intercepted a British ship contrary to the rules of blockade as the British understood them. The primary number one value of the British here is protection of their shipping, without their ships their factories grind to a halt, without their factories people are without jobs without jobs people have time and incentive to plot revolution. Britain thus cannot stand for allowing the arbitrary interception of her shipping.

As to the rest. The Confederacy while popular with some politicians in the UK practices an institution, worse is founded in order to preserve an institution that large swathes of both the political class, the voting and non-voting public find toxic. Palmerston has no need to ally with the Confederacy and everything to gain by not doing so.

As to supporting the preservation of slavery in the south quite the contrary. Britain can bully the CSA far more easily than it can even the remainder USA. The USA is the kind of nation against whom the cost of war is only justifiable in order to preserve something critical like oh a major province of the British Empire or say its shipping upon which the wealth of the nation depends. The CSA on the other hand will have trouble fielding much of a navy or of supporting much of an economy in the face of a British blockade.

Meanwhile in the north there are only a handful of slave states with their economies largely tied to a great majority of anti-slave states. Who do you think is going to win the argument there?
 
In one respect, the situation is a similar one to WW2. You can't rationalize going to war against the Nazis post-1942 if your number one value is destroying communism.
Where you're going wrong is assuming that Palmerston's main focus is on ending slavery. That's been one of his goals for a long time, but his main focus for most of his political career has been on maintaining British honour and prestige abroad. That's why he made the Don Pacifico speech; it's why he won an election in 1857, and lost office in 1859; and it's why he takes the actions he does over the Trent:

'There is no doubt that all nations are aggressive; it is the nature of man. There start up from time to time between countries antagonistic passions and questions of conflicting interest, which, if not properly dealt with, would terminate in the explosion of war. Now, if one country is led to think that another country, with which such questions might arise, is from fear disposed on every occasion tamely to submit to any amount of indignity, that is an encouragement to hostile conduct and to extreme proceedings which lead to conflict. It may be depended on that there is no better security for peace between nations than the conviction that each must respect the other, that each is capable of defending itself, and that no insult or injury committed by the one against the other would pass unresented. Between nations, as between individuals, mutual respect is the best security for mutual goodwill and mutual courtesy'

Although honour is his primary motivation, it doesn't mean the slavery focus goes away altogether. But to think that Palmerston's number one value is slavery is to completely misunderstand him as a politician, and perhaps explains why you don't understand why he wouldn't do the things you suggest.

And if you don't want to aid slavery, then you definitely don't break the blockade of the slave states.
You do if it's highly likely that, in the event of war breaking out, those squadrons will abandon the blockade anyway. They'll either go back to Northern ports to act as a fleet in being, raid commerce, or assault Britain's naval base at Bermuda: however, they won't carry blithely on with what they were doing.

I have trouble with the idea that the UK could engage in such a war, then pretend that they aren't basically guaranteeing the continued existence of slavery in North America.
But Seward already made it clear through formal diplomatic channels that the continued existence of slavery was guaranteed regardless of the result of the war:
'you will not consent to draw into debate before the British government any opposing moral principles, which may be supposed to lie at the foundation of the controversy between those (the Confederate) States and the Federal Union' (Seward to Adams, ambassador in London, 10 April 1861).
'refrain from any observation whatever concerning the morality or immorality, the economy or the waste, the social or the unsocial aspects of slavery... the condition of slavery in the United States will remain the same whether [the revolution] shall succeed or fail" (Seward to Dayton, ambassador in Paris, 22 April 1861)

I would guess that he would want to get as much leverage as he can over the people he detests.
And as I've pointed out, there is no way in which the deal you propose gives Palmerston any leverage. In fact, by recognising the Confederacy internationally, he gives up the one bargaining chip which he has over them at the same time as ruling out the alternative options for dealing with them. Far from having a plan A, B and C, your suggestion commits him to a single specific course which is entirely dependent on trusting people who have previously sabotaged his anti-slavery activities not to sabotage his anti-slavery activities. Palmerston is far too much of a realist to do this.
 
Where you're going wrong is assuming that Palmerston's main focus is on ending slavery. That's been one of his goals for a long time, but his main focus for most of his political career has been on maintaining British honour and prestige abroad.

I don't think that is his focus at all, because it isn't reasonable to say that you want to end slavery and then help the slaveocrats. That's what I was trying to explain--hence the extended metaphor about picking sides in WW2. My fault if I didn't make that part clear.

That's why he made the Don Pacifico speech; it's why he won an election in 1857, and lost office in 1859; and it's why he takes the actions he does over the Trent:

'There is no doubt that all nations are aggressive; it is the nature of man. There start up from time to time between countries antagonistic passions and questions of conflicting interest, which, if not properly dealt with, would terminate in the explosion of war. Now, if one country is led to think that another country, with which such questions might arise, is from fear disposed on every occasion tamely to submit to any amount of indignity, that is an encouragement to hostile conduct and to extreme proceedings which lead to conflict. It may be depended on that there is no better security for peace between nations than the conviction that each must respect the other, that each is capable of defending itself, and that no insult or injury committed by the one against the other would pass unresented. Between nations, as between individuals, mutual respect is the best security for mutual goodwill and mutual courtesy'

Although honour is his primary motivation, it doesn't mean the slavery focus goes away altogether. But to think that Palmerston's number one value is slavery is to completely misunderstand him as a politician, and perhaps explains why you don't understand why he wouldn't do the things you suggest.

Honor isn't his primary motivation, and neither is prestige. Those are rather transparent dogwhistles for power.

I'm just trying to distinguish between what people say and what people do. Honor is BS. Always has been, and always will be. Just utter nonsense. Every time someone uses the word "honor," they're only obfuscating whatever the actual motive is. Which is why you don't get involved in a major war with the other leading industrial power kidnapping a couple of "diplomats" from a pariah state over "honor." You solve your differences in some other way, whether it's slowly making it look like you're going to go to war while actually giving your opponent every chance to avoid it, or declaring a war and only prosecuting it halfheartedly, or whatever it might be. There's no reason to rush headlong into a conflict that will kill thousands at the least, guarantee that you're going to will into existence a state which stands for principles that you supposedly hate, over "honor." That's childish.

Even WW1, which was the dumbest of all wars, was fought for advantage rather than honor. Even when they said it was for honor, it wasn't. It ended up blowing up in their faces, and harming everyone so much that no one gained advantage, but they fought it to become more powerful.


The real motivation has to be to kneecap the US.


You do if it's highly likely that, in the event of war breaking out, those squadrons will abandon the blockade anyway. They'll either go back to Northern ports to act as a fleet in being, raid commerce, or assault Britain's naval base at Bermuda: however, they won't carry blithely on with what they were doing.

I can't see it. It's not in the US interest to go to war, which is why we backed down IOTL. It also isn't in the US interest to vigorously prosecute the war and bring down hell on themselves when cooler heads can prevail even after a declaration of war. If there's an aggressor here, it will always be the UK. I felt that was pretty consistent with what happened here in the ATL.


But Seward already made it clear through formal diplomatic channels that the continued existence of slavery was guaranteed regardless of the result of the war:
'you will not consent to draw into debate before the British government any opposing moral principles, which may be supposed to lie at the foundation of the controversy between those (the Confederate) States and the Federal Union' (Seward to Adams, ambassador in London, 10 April 1861).
'refrain from any observation whatever concerning the morality or immorality, the economy or the waste, the social or the unsocial aspects of slavery... the condition of slavery in the United States will remain the same whether [the revolution] shall succeed or fail" (Seward to Dayton, ambassador in Paris, 22 April 1861)

Again, what people say and what people do. It was always going to be a war aim. In less than a year, the Emancipation Proclamation is issued, and Lincoln wanted to issue it even before then. And that's far from the first motion toward ending slavery. Lincoln just wants to buy himself breathing room to get past the midterms with his majority intact. IOTL, he felt like the victory at Antietam gave him the political capital to do so. Lincoln isn't going to commit anything to paper which could get him in so much domestic trouble, but that doesn't mean he can't use back channels. I mean, it's not like someone's going to upload a recording of him to Wikileaks.


And as I've pointed out, there is no way in which the deal you propose gives Palmerston any leverage.

Of course it gives him leverage. The UK is probably going to be the CS' largest trading partner, the UK has essentially guaranteed their independence, and concurrently is stomping the shit out of the US, a country that was giving them a lot of problems in the very recent past. At the very least, there's the threat of economic sanctions or a blockade if the Confederates don't do what they want. What about this isn't leverage? How are the Confederates in a position to refuse?

In fact, by recognising the Confederacy internationally, he gives up the one bargaining chip which he has over them at the same time as ruling out the alternative options for dealing with them.

We can't call him a realist in one breath and then say that this is a significant issue in another. By engaging in a major military effort against the US, he is guaranteeing their independence. Whether or not he opens an embassy in Richmond is irrelevant to that outcome.

Far from having a plan A, B and C, your suggestion commits him to a single specific course which is entirely dependent on trusting people who have previously sabotaged his anti-slavery activities not to sabotage his anti-slavery activities.

Opening an embassy, or signing a secret accord, or anything in between doesn't commit him to a certain course of action. If the Confederates can stab people in the back, so can the British. What does commit him to a certain course of action is killing thousands of Americans. I can't emphasize that enough. Killing people pisses their survivors off. He's poisoning the well for years.

But at the end of the day, there is no reason why he can't have two agreements. One with the CS for the CS to pitch in the enforce their own laws, and another with the US to allow them the right to stop US ships.
Then if the Confederates back out, they can say that they consider that the CS wasn't independent when the US agreed to that provision, and that the provision therefore applies to them. The reason that's less attractive is that it creates friction between the UK and the CS, and those countries made each other a lot of money. Friction decreases the likelihood that they will make money in the future. No one wants that.

It isn't in the interest of the CS or UK to make the UK resort to using the stick when there's a sack of carrots in the stable. The Confederates need to sell cotton, the British want to buy cotton, and the British can strangle the Confederate economy in ways that the US never could. Those are all bad outcomes for Richmond. Agreeing to send a few frigates to the Slave Coast after the war (to enforce a law that's already on the books) is a small price to pay to avoid those outcomes.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
I think your assumption that nobody was ever impelled to act on the national level by honour is simply incorrect, which is why I think your whole argument falls apart. Just as one example there's the Abyssynia Expedition - where the British invaded Ethiopia over an insult to the persons of two British citizens, at enormous expense, and then left again without setting up any kind of government or annexation.
 
The casus belli is very simple, the US intercepted a British ship contrary to the rules of blockade as the British understood them. The primary number one value of the British here is protection of their shipping, without their ships their factories grind to a halt, without their factories people are without jobs without jobs people have time and incentive to plot revolution. Britain thus cannot stand for allowing the arbitrary interception of her shipping.

I understand what the causus belli is. But that's a legal fiction at the end of the day, and there are a lot of ways to solve this legal problem without starting invading Michigan, for crying out loud. That's why there was no war IOTL.

Don't miss the point about escalating the war. You can stand up to the bully who takes your lunch money without burning his house down.

As to the rest. The Confederacy while popular with some politicians in the UK practices an institution, worse is founded in order to preserve an institution that large swathes of both the political class, the voting and non-voting public find toxic. Palmerston has no need to ally with the Confederacy and everything to gain by not doing so.

Lol, then don't go to war on the side of the slaveocrats. It's that simple. These antislavery people in the UK aren't stupid. They understand just as well as we do what it means to go to war against the free states when they are fighting the slave power. Again, imagine WW2--if a politician had "everything to lose" by standing apart from the Nazis, well then he shouldn't fight the people the Nazis are fighting, and therefore stand alongside them.

As to supporting the preservation of slavery in the south quite the contrary. Britain can bully the CSA far more easily than it can even the remainder USA. The USA is the kind of nation against whom the cost of war is only justifiable in order to preserve something critical like oh a major province of the British Empire or say its shipping upon which the wealth of the nation depends. The CSA on the other hand will have trouble fielding much of a navy or of supporting much of an economy in the face of a British blockade.

Exactly. If the UK get into this war, they have a ton of leverage over the CS. The UK is aware of this. So they would use that leverage to get what they want. It's the path of least resistance.

Meanwhile in the north there are only a handful of slave states with their economies largely tied to a great majority of anti-slave states. Who do you think is going to win the argument there?

If you mean the argument over whether slavery would persist, then it's going to be the free states. Which is why, if slavery is such an issue in Britain, you don't aid the CS by destroying the best chance to smother it in the cradle.

Which is why there must be issues which are of greater importance.
 
It isn't in the interest of the CS or UK to make the UK resort to using the stick when there's a sack of carrots in the stable. The Confederates need to sell cotton, the British want to buy cotton, and the British can strangle the Confederate economy in ways that the US never could. Those are all bad outcomes for Richmond. Agreeing to send a few frigates to the Slave Coast after the war (to enforce a law that's already on the books) is a small price to pay to avoid those outcomes.

No...again you are trying to force your narrative on events. The British can buy cotton from Egypt and India, they have a fair amount of influence on Egypt and even more on India. Yes they probably will not hold their noses at buying cheaper cotton but they are likely to be able to do that anyway. They have the best connected buyers the world over and the ships to carry goods from whichever market it is sold into.

If however you want to find something that is as important to the British as cotton is to the CSA then you find it easily in shipping. Even if you chose to believe there is no honour among statesmen then similar follow the path of fear. I illustrated it above for you but once again, any attack on British shipping and the rights of British shipping must be nipped in the bud or the whole edifice of nation and empire topples. That is why the Trent interception found the US swimming in such dangerous waters.
 
I think your assumption that nobody was ever impelled to act on the national level by honour is simply incorrect, which is why I think your whole argument falls apart. Just as one example there's the Abyssynia Expedition - where the British invaded Ethiopia over an insult to the persons of two British citizens, at enormous expense, and then left again without setting up any kind of government or annexation.

I think that claiming that a war with Ethiopia and a war with the US are comparable is where this argument falls apart.

But there are important differences anyway. 1) That issue drug on for more than 2 years. 2) A lot of people thought it was asinine, even then. They lost the argument, but because there was little at stake for the UK. 3) There were permanent advantages in Africa that the UK hoped to gain from it. They were unsuccessful, but it was always about more than honor. 4) The whole concept of looking tough is way more important in a place like Africa, where you are outnumbered 1000 to 1.
 
I'm no
No...again you are trying to force your narrative on events. The British can buy cotton from Egypt and India, they have a fair amount of influence on Egypt and even more on India. Yes they probably will not hold their noses at buying cheaper cotton but they are likely to be able to do that anyway. They have the best connected buyers the world over and the ships to carry goods from whichever market it is sold into.

If however you want to find something that is as important to the British as cotton is to the CSA then you find it easily in shipping. Even if you chose to believe there is no honour among statesmen then similar follow the path of fear. I illustrated it above for you but once again, any attack on British shipping and the rights of British shipping must be nipped in the bud or the whole edifice of nation and empire topples. That is why the Trent interception found the US swimming in such dangerous waters.

I'm not forcing my narrative onto events. The British wanted cotton and the CS needed to sell cotton. The CS needed to sell more than the UK needed to buy, which is why the Uk is the party with leverage.

And the slippery slope argument is a logical fallacy. The Trent Affair is not the proximate cause of the fall of the British Empire. :)
 

Saphroneth

Banned
I understand what the causus belli is. But that's a legal fiction at the end of the day, and there are a lot of ways to solve this legal problem without starting invading Michigan, for crying out loud. That's why there was no war IOTL.
Sorry, but this is not correct. The casus belli was what the British said it was, and your argument suggests that the British ultimatum was not an ultimatum.
It was an ultimatum. That's why they issued their secret war orders to the RN - for example Dunlop had plans to strike at the Gulf blockading squadron.


I think that claiming that a war with Ethiopia and a war with the US are comparable is where this argument falls apart.
If Britain only ever starts wars with an objective besides honour, then Ethiopia is a flat counterexample. It was a war of honour fought to conclusion, one where the British had complete control over the Ethopian country at the conclusion of the war... and they got their apology and left again.

You said:
Honor is BS. Always has been, and always will be. Just utter nonsense. Every time someone uses the word "honor," they're only obfuscating whatever the actual motive is.
And Ethiopia is a counterexample. The British could have gotten what they wanted if they wanted anything other than the satisfaction of honour. They did not do so.


Another possible counterexample is the use by the US in 1858 of a threat of war to prevent the British boarding US ships. The matter was explicitly one of honour.
 
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I understand what the causus belli is. But that's a legal fiction at the end of the day, and there are a lot of ways to solve this legal problem without starting invading Michigan, for crying out loud. That's why there was no war IOTL.

No. It is a vital British interest at stake which is why if the US Government had not found a formula whereby they could back down and not have it sabotaged by Congress there would have been severe consequences.

Don't miss the point about escalating the war. You can stand up to the bully who takes your lunch money without burning his house down.

This is not about standing up to a bully this is about sending a message to everyone not just the US, "Don't mess with the British" in an era when such a message can be made to stick.



Lol, then don't go to war on the side of the slaveocrats. It's that simple. These antislavery people in the UK aren't stupid. They understand just as well as we do what it means to go to war against the free states when they are fighting the slave power. Again, imagine WW2--if a politician had "everything to lose" by standing apart from the Nazis, well then he shouldn't fight the people the Nazis are fighting, and therefore stand alongside them.

Here you see you are actually reinforcing not conflicting with this Time Line's central premise which is too many in the US would have failed to understand Britain was acting out of ruthless self-interest and assume that it was some evil conspiracy to aid the Rebels. Just as you there would have been loud voices keen to portray the British solely and entirely as evil and heartless. The sad point being that mostly what the British wanted to hear was a slightly more strongly worded version of "Sorry, won't happen again".



Exactly. If the UK get into this war, they have a ton of leverage over the CS. The UK is aware of this. So they would use that leverage to get what they want. It's the path of least resistance.

No Palmerston was very aware of the old Parliamentary adage (yet to actually be concisely stated though it was), "The members who sit opposite are Her Majesty's Oppostion, your enemies are behind you". The political cost of acknowledging the Confederacy especially while fighting the US and thus putting at some risk not inconsiderable British investment was too high.


If you mean the argument over whether slavery would persist, then it's going to be the free states. Which is why, if slavery is such an issue in Britain, you don't aid the CS by destroying the best chance to smother it in the cradle.

Which is why there must be issues which are of greater importance.

As pointed out above, Seward who was a particularly bete noir of the British was confident that the Civil War would be resolved without abolition. Lincoln was not able make it a cause of the Union war effort until 1863.

As to the issue of greater importance, nothing but nothing was of greater importance to the British than that their ships be allowed to go unimpeded about their business so long as they practiced in accordance with the usage and customs of the sea (which were pretty much dictated by the British anyway).
 

Saphroneth

Banned
Worth noting that much of British society saw Confederate secession as a fast path to Abolition. They felt the North (no longer shackled to the South) would give up slavery willingly, and the South (no longer able to hide behind the North) would be easier to bully into doing so.

This is something we must remember - Union Victory meaning abolition was something that was not guaranteed until at least 1864. In 1862 the Union look like they're fine with slavery but hate rebellion - after all, Union loyalists get to keep their slaves so long as they swear loyalty.
 
No. It is a vital British interest at stake which is why if the US Government had not found a formula whereby they could back down and not have it sabotaged by Congress there would have been severe consequences.



This is not about standing up to a bully this is about sending a message to everyone not just the US, "Don't mess with the British" in an era when such a message can be made to stick.

I didn't say it isn't in the British interest, I said that the British interest can be satisfied without invading Michigan.

Severe consequences =/ invading Michigan

This whole discussion was started because I wanted to make a very narrow point that the UK has every incentive to maximize their ability to satisfy their aims, which includes making as many agreements with the belligerents as they can.




Here you see you are actually reinforcing not conflicting with this Time Line's central premise which is too many in the US would have failed to understand Britain was acting out of ruthless self-interest and assume that it was some evil conspiracy to aid the Rebels. Just as you there would have been loud voices keen to portray the British solely and entirely as evil and heartless. The sad point being that mostly what the British wanted to hear was a slightly more strongly worded version of "Sorry, won't happen again".

I'm reinforcing the central premise because I don't disagree with the central premise. The Trent affair could have led to war. The UK would have won that war. I agree with all that.

When did I portray the British as evil or heartless? What?

My point is that there's no reason to backdoor a way to board a Confederate ship when you have all the leverage in the world to hold over their heads. You don't need to carjack them--you can just ask them to donate the car. They will. This should not be a controversial point.


No Palmerston was very aware of the old Parliamentary adage (yet to actually be concisely stated though it was), "The members who sit opposite are Her Majesty's Oppostion, your enemies are behind you". The political cost of acknowledging the Confederacy especially while fighting the US and thus putting at some risk not inconsiderable British investment was too high.

I must be miscommunicating, which is my fault. But there doesn't have to be a formal acknowledgement of the Confederate States to have relations with them. That's arguing against a point that I'm not really making, because I don't think of it as that relevant either way. The UK had diplomatic relations with the Soviet Union before they formally recognized them as the legitimate government of Russia, and they had dealing with them when diplomatic relations were suspended a few years later. It doesn't matter if you open an embassy in Richmond or not, because the UK is guaranteeing their independence by going to war against the US. This is not a point that would be lost on anyone in Parliament--or Congress--or in some back alley where they can read the stray front page of the paper saying that they're going to war. I mean, if the British were to make a peace with Germany in December 1939, and then go to war against the Soviet Union after the Germans invade a couple of years later, does it matter to anyone that there's not an embassy in Berlin? Of course not. By going to war, they become the de facto ally of the Nazis. The embassy is just a building. A treaty is just a piece of paper. The bullets kill people.

As pointed out above, Seward who was a particularly bete noir of the British was confident that the Civil War would be resolved without abolition. Lincoln was not able make it a cause of the Union war effort until 1863.

It was 1862, but it's beside the point. Seward was an abolitionist through and through. He made statements like that as an employee of the Lincoln administration that needed to tell certain lies because of a weakness domestically. They abandoned the position as soon as it was convenient.

As to the issue of greater importance, nothing but nothing was of greater importance to the British than that their ships be allowed to go unimpeded about their business so long as they practiced in accordance with the usage and customs of the sea (which were pretty much dictated by the British anyway).

I never disputed that it wasn't a big concern. It's not a black or white kind of thing. All I'm saying is that they can get that concession without invading Michigan, and without prosecuting the war so globally that they ensure the existence of the CS. What I'm pushing back against is the contention that they ONLY want to clarify some naval/merchant marine arrangements. They can have more than one concern, and if they are going to turn this into a major war with a great power, they're going to have greater interests at stake.

Basically, I'm giving the British credit for understanding the consequences of their actions. They aren't unaware that they are ensuring the existence of the CS, because they live in a real world subject to normal rules of time and space. :) They also realize that they can do major damage to an up and coming competitor by making sure that their nation (the US) gets split in two. And they can get naval and marine concessions. And they can make the Confederates contribute something to end the slave trade. And they can get the legal right to board their ships if that doesn't work. They're going to try and get everything they can, because that's what people do.
 
Sorry, but this is not correct. The casus belli was what the British said it was, and your argument suggests that the British ultimatum was not an ultimatum.
It was an ultimatum. That's why they issued their secret war orders to the RN - for example Dunlop had plans to strike at the Gulf blockading squadron.

Sure it's an ultimatum. So was Obama's "red line" in Syria. But it was against the national interest as he understood it to make good on his ultimatum. The UK is no different. They issued an ultimatum, sure. But they follow through on it because they can get an advantage from doing so.



If Britain only ever starts wars with an objective besides honour, then Ethiopia is a flat counterexample. It was a war of honour fought to conclusion, one where the British had complete control over the Ethopian country at the conclusion of the war... and they got their apology and left again.

You said:

And Ethiopia is a counterexample. The British could have gotten what they wanted if they wanted anything other than the satisfaction of honour. They did not do so.


Another possible counterexample is the use by the US in 1858 of a threat of war to prevent the British boarding US ships. The matter was explicitly one of honour.

I also said this:

But there are important differences anyway. 1) That issue drug on for more than 2 years. 2) A lot of people thought it was asinine, even then. They lost the argument, but because there was little at stake for the UK. 3) There were permanent advantages in Africa that the UK hoped to gain from it. They were unsuccessful, but it was always about more than honor. 4) The whole concept of looking tough is way more important in a place like Africa, where you are outnumbered 1000 to 1.


So I don't think it's entirely accurate to say that war was about "honor." Anymore than whipping a slave over "sassing" a white man is about honor. It's about control. The UK could not let a country like Ethiopia give them the finger for two years when they were at such profound disadvantages trying to assert colonial dominance over a continent. They weren't worried about honor, they were worried about losing control of Africa if Africans realized they could stand up to white men.

So it is most definitely my contention that the British had many other motives to fight that war other than "honor." They fought that war to enforce the racial and colonial status quo.
 
11-13 May 1862

Saphroneth

Banned
11 May

The Passaic and the Casco are launched in Pittsburgh, both ironclads constructed in a city not connected to the Eastern Seaboard and as such not caught in the slipyard by Milne's forces.
While the Passaic (renamed after the destruction of the original on the slips) is a serviceable ship that is essentially a straight upgrade on Monitor (and slated to be armed with a 15" Rodman gun as soon as one becomes available later in the summer), the Casco's launch is seriously problematic. For unknown reasons, the problems discovered at Erie were not communicated to Pittsburgh, and the Casco has barely three inches of freeboard when unarmed and uncoaled - indeed, the waves produced by her own launching nearly swamp her.

Pennefeather enters Detroit. He will leave behind Canadian militia units to garrison the city and secure his line of communication, and push west for Grand Rapids.

12 May
The Prince Consort launches at Pembroke. Originally a 91-gun second rate, she has been converted on the stocks to an ironclad and will mount 24 68-lber guns and 9 Armstrong 110-lber guns, with her belt and battery armour being of similar construction to that of the Warrior. Much work has been done on her insides on the slips, and she is expected to enter commission late in the year.

Also on this date, the French la Gloire arrives off Veracruz. She begins bombardment of San Juan de Ulúa with three steam frigates and one battleship in support - with the British fully engaged in attempting to bring the United States to surrender by way of coastal attack, Napoleon III wants to demonstrate French prowess.

13 May

Six mortar gunboats arrive off the Eastern Seaboard. Milne is not sure what to do with them, as he has already in fact done most of the work without the use of mortar ships, but spreads them out and assigns two to the Great Lakes instead.
As he is seeing to this, one of the sloops with his force (the paddle wheeler Styx) orders a potential blockade runner to heave-to. Taking advantage of his speed against the wind, Styx's captain stops and searches the American merchant vessel, the Golden Eagle. The ship, a clipper, claims to be carrying a cargo of non-contraband silk and tea, but Styx's captain orders a full search - and discovers two thousand Belgian rifles concealed under the floor.
This cargo is a large enough consignment that Milne has Golden Eagle sent to Halifax with a prize crew (and the escort of a gunboat) for the courts to determine whether the whole ship is forfeit.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
Yes, the Casco class were that much of a screw up. Here's what one looked like with no turret:
1280px-Uss_Casco_1864.jpg

"No more than 70% of the crew permitted at either bow or stern!"
 
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I'm just trying to distinguish between what people say and what people do. Honor is BS. Always has been, and always will be. Just utter nonsense.
I understand that you might struggle to get into the mind-set of someone from 1862, just as people from 2170 will probably struggle to understand why we do half the things we do. However, this doesn't make honour any less of a real motivation for Palmerston's actions. As Glen Melancon explains:

'Honour governed what we today call "linkage" or credibility because loss of honour would affect what Palmerston referred to as Britain's "moral power" to influence the actions of other states by undermining confidence in its ability to follow through on its decisions. These states must not forget, when facing a British frigate, however small, for example, that the "Flag of England must be respected." In an era when policy was guided by the principle that Britain should not interfere in the internal affairs of other states, the ability to influence their behaviour was more important than in a period in which the use of force was the norm. However difficult for the late twentieth century to comprehend, honour as a motive for violence was taken for granted before the First World War. To dismiss it as a "veneer" tells us, sadly, rather more about the moral values of contemporary historians than it does about the motives of those with whom they deal.'

I can't see it. It's not in the US interest to go to war, which is why we backed down IOTL. It also isn't in the US interest to vigorously prosecute the war and bring down hell on themselves when cooler heads can prevail even after a declaration of war.
The Royal Navy didn't achieve 200 years of maritime supremacy by assuming its opponents just wouldn't bother fighting it. Presumably, though, you will concede that there's a perfectly valid reason for Milne to break the blockade and destroy the blockading squadron that doesn't involve him being a secret slavery supporter: that the US navy is a potential threat to the British. Particularly if you believe, as many in the British government seem to have suspected, that the point of the Trent is to allow the Union to duck out of an increasingly hopeless Civil War and take some free territory in Canada as compensation.

Again, what people say and what people do. It was always going to be a war aim. In less than a year, the Emancipation Proclamation is issued, and Lincoln wanted to issue it even before then. And that's far from the first motion toward ending slavery.
But you're basing all this on hindsight and private information, neither of which Palmerston had the benefit of. What Palmerston knows is what he's learnt through official diplomatic channels (that the Union isn't going to act against slavery); through Lincoln's public statements (that the Union isn't going to act against slavery); and Lincoln's public acts, (that generals who proclaim emancipation get overruled and subsequently sacked). If it was so obvious that emancipation was always going to be a war aim, why did the Union try so hard to convince everybody - including Palmerston - that it wasn't?

But at the end of the day, there is no reason why he can't have two agreements. One with the CS for the CS to pitch in the enforce their own laws, and another with the US to allow them the right to stop US ships.
Then if the Confederates back out, they can say that they consider that the CS wasn't independent when the US agreed to that provision, and that the provision therefore applies to them.
No, he can't. If the British government has entered into a bilateral agreement with the Confederate government, they have recognised the Confederate government as a separate legal entity from the Union. They can't subsequently turn around and say 'actually, we've changed our minds, the Confederacy wasn't independent after all': recognition is final. That's why Britain is so cautious about dealing with Mason and Slidell, and why they send very specific instructions to both consuls and naval captains as to what they should and shouldn't be doing when dealing with the Confederates:
'You are on no account to salute the Confederate flag, but should any of their Forts or Ships salute the British Flag, you have my authority to return it, tho' you are to be most Guarded not to encourage or invite in any manner such a proceeding on their part, or even allude to the subject.' (Milne to Grant and Hewitt, 9 September 1861)

Palmerston is focused on Britain's goals, and nobody else's. He's no more concerned whether a Trent war furthers Confederate independence than he was about whether the Crimean war furthered Circassian independence.

Agreeing to send a few frigates to the Slave Coast after the war (to enforce a law that's already on the books) is a small price to pay to avoid those outcomes.
It was a small price for the United States when they signed the Webster-Ashburton treaty as well, yet they still didn't pay it. Even by the 1840s, Palmerston is absolutely 100% clear on how you should deal with minor states like the Confederacy when it comes to abolishing the slave trade:

'With respect to Spain, Portugal, and Brazil, I must say that the engagements entered into by those Powers have been perseveringly, systematically, scandalously, and dishonourably violated. We are told that the conduct of the Government of Portugal has of late undergone alteration. What I said with regard to Portugal applies to its conduct up to 1839 or 1840. The Government tells us that Portugal has of late begun to be awake to a sense of their obligations to act according to the Treaty... But, Sir, if Portugal has so altered her conduct, what is the occasion of that change? Has it been any spontaneous sense of duty which suddenly came upon the Portuguese Government as the result of their own reflection? Not in the least. If the Government of Portugal are now fulfilling the obligations under which they have, for seven-and-twenty years at least, been lying in relation to this country, it is not owing to any honourable feeling on the part of that Government; it is solely owing to the measure of coercion which we proposed to Parliament in the year 1839, and which Parliament, most honourably, I may say, to parties in both Houses, agreed to adopt...

Sir, I say it was that which brought Portugal to her senses; it was that which brought her to a sense, not of the duty which she owed us—of that she was aware before—but to a sense of her inability to resist us when she was in the wrong. She appealed in vain to the Powers of Europe. She had trifled with us for a long course of years, and when she found that we were no longer to be trifled with — when she thought it would not be prudent to brave us any longer, she submitted...The course which we took with regard to Portugal had, as I have shown, a very good effect with regard to Cuba and Brazil; and if the means were applied which we possess to compel Spain and Brazil to conform to and fulfil the obligations which they have contracted with us, the Slave Trade would soon almost cease to exist.'

The idea that Palmerston is going to trust the very people he believes sabotaged his previous efforts to abolish the slave trade (as well as make a giant diplomatic faux pas by inadvertently recognising them, risking further international fallout and provoking domestic dissatisfaction) stretches credibility beyond its limits. Palmerston was foreign secretary for fifteen years: he knew how the system worked, and (if you look into his career) he made it very clear how he liked to do things.

The UK could not let a country like Ethiopia give them the finger for two years when they were at such profound disadvantages trying to assert colonial dominance over a continent. They weren't worried about honor, they were worried about losing control of Africa if Africans realized they could stand up to white men.
What 'colonial dominance over a continent' and 'control of Africa'? The Scramble for Africa isn't for another fifteen years. At the time of the war, the only African colonies Britain has are the Cape and a few scattered posts in West Africa used for attacking the slave trade.
 
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Yes, the Casco class were that much of a screw up. Here's what one looked like with no turret:
1280px-Uss_Casco_1864.jpg

"No more than 70% of the crew permitted at either bow or stern!"
urm 3" freeboard? No more than 70% crew at bow or stern?

Dude - That stern is awash.

Why the heck did the US even keep the things given their look? Scrap and restart!
 

Saphroneth

Banned
urm 3" freeboard? No more than 70% crew at bow or stern?

Dude - That stern is awash.

Why the heck did the US even keep the things given their look? Scrap and restart!
The crew bit was my joke, though the 3" freeboard is real.

The reason they kept the Cascos is basically because they were so expensive - the Casco class was twenty ships strong (they're a third of the entire US ironclad program for the Civil War) and their utter failure to be what they were supposed to be was a huge public scandal. Given the circumstances (and how this was only found out when they launched the first couple OTL) they couldn't just literally say "our bad" and admit they'd completely wasted ten million dollars, they had to get something out of them.

For reference, this would be the equivalent of about a dozen British dreadnoughts built pre-WW1 being unable to float with their turrets in place.
 
The crew bit was my joke, though the 3" freeboard is real.

The reason they kept the Cascos is basically because they were so expensive - the Casco class was twenty ships strong (they're a third of the entire US ironclad program for the Civil War) and their utter failure to be what they were supposed to be was a huge public scandal. Given the circumstances (and how this was only found out when they launched the first couple OTL) they couldn't just literally say "our bad" and admit they'd completely wasted ten million dollars, they had to get something out of them.

For reference, this would be the equivalent of about a dozen British dreadnoughts built pre-WW1 being unable to float with their turrets in place.
But but but 1 good hit to the WL and they go glug glug glug.
Why not scrap the rest of the class after the first few launches, or at least heavily modify those still on the stocks???
 
But but but 1 good hit to the WL and they go glug glug glug.
Why not scrap the rest of the class after the first few launches, or at least heavily modify those still on the stocks???

They did heavily modify them them, the ones furthest along were completed as spar torpedo boats with a single Dhalgren 11" on an unprotected mount. Only one seems to have been caught early enough she could serve as an actual monitor the Squando and she was in reserve before the end of 1866.
 
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