If they will not meet us on the open sea (a Trent TL)

I'm down for Alternative 1, I want to see an attack on Washington succeed. It's considered the Sealion of the Civil War, and your scenario has the best chance to make it possible
 

Saphroneth

Banned
I'm down for Alternative 1, I want to see an attack on Washington succeed. It's considered the Sealion of the Civil War, and your scenario has the best chance to make it possible
I did actually come up with an ops plan last night to make it work. For now I'm going to just mention division counts.

Johnston has 13 divs, McClellan has 7 in Washington and 1 at Baltimore, plus 10K-20K (very) fresh recruits. (The troops in WV are too far away to help, and can be stopped up with the odd Confed brigade unaccounted for)

2 Confed Divs at Manassas and one Confed Div at Leesburg act as a threatening force. McClellan has to respond to the threat, so he deploys 1 Fed Div at the Arlington Heights (abandoning the outer defences in the Alexandria area as too long to man) and one Fed div across the river from Leesburg.

Johnston doesn't need to take Harpers Ferry because it was still in Rebel hands in Jan 1862 and McClellan didn't have the forces to mount his "bloodless" offensive. He crosses the river in force and reaches Frederick MD.

McClellan needs to watch both turnpikes out of Frederick (to Washington and to Baltimore), so deploys one division to each - he can't reuse the Leesburg division because he doesn't know how strong the Rebel force across the river is. He has three left in Washington.

Johnston pushes 2 Divs (one corps) down the Washington turnpike as a distraction and screening force (they encounter McClellan's screen on the turnpike but do not overwhelm it), and makes with the rest of his force for Baltimore. For supply he has the B&O Railroad at least as far as Ridgeville, and he uses the Patapsco River as a screen as he advances towards Ellicotts Mills via the turnpike. (Using two more divisions to form his screen to the north against possible Union forces coming down from PA, he has six left).

McClellan beats him to Ellicotts Mills by having his Baltimore division rush there and fortify, joined by his Baltimore Pike division and followed by the rest of his disposable force, and holds the line of the Little Patuxent as being the best way to stop Johnston from reaching either Baltimore or the rail line. McClellan has five divisions here if he calls in everything that's not facing the Confederates directly, Johnston has six.

Here Johnston entrenches, then leaves a single corps (2 divs) with his Patapsco screening force on call (another 2 Divs) and performs a march with 4 Divs via Cocksville, Unity, Damascus and Clarksburg (or via Cocksville, Brookeville, Mechanicsville and Rockville if he's being daring) to reach the Washington Pike. With six divisions on this line of operations, he either defeats or drives back McClellan's screening force here (the ones facing Leesburg and on the Washington Pike) and reunites with the Leesburg force to give seven divisions.

If McClellan pulls back everything he can spare from Ellicotts Mills without making it easy for Johnston's remaining force there to take Baltimore (meaning he can withdraw at most four divisions out of his five, and that's pushing it and requires a perfect guess) and manages to win the race to Washington, then McClellan has four field divisions in the Washington forts north of the river, one south (facing two) and the remains of the force he had on the turnpike road (two damaged divisions, assuming Johnston didn't just turn and capture them via Rockville), plus about five brigades of very green troops. Johnston has seven divisions north of the river and two south, and his line of operations also takes him down Rockville Pike - the road for which there are no forts in 1862 due to a topographical planning error.

McClellan can't withdraw his remaining force around Ellicotts Mills without losing Baltimore, so that's pinned. If he pulls back the division south of the river then the CSA takes the heights, so that's pinned too, and he doesn't have the troops to risk a flanking movement via the smaller roads. But Johnston can weaken his forces facing both peripheral areas (by a division or so) and reinforce his initial success without real risk, or even send a corps through Leesboro and Colesville to cut the rail line (and, incidentally, march north and turn the Ellicotts Mills force). If he doesn't do that he can just fight a field battle at (depending on results) between 7:6 and 9:4 and almost certainly win.

This is, I think, pretty close to a checkmate.


(n.b. when I say "entrenched" I mean in defensive posture, such as embrasures and the like - not actual trenches, which were not common yet).
 
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Would the Union consider an offensive into the CSA to be the best option in these circumstances:

- The British appear to be standing on the defensive in Canada therefore limited screening forces and demolitions should be sufficient on that front
- The Union blockade of the CSA has been broken but it will take time for the Confederacy to import arms & re-equip/re-deploy forces.
- The Union itself is now being blockaded so the current armament/supply situation is the best it's going to be without significant time to replace imported supplies.

Therefore "On to Richmond!"
Or is this too much of a gamble?
 

Saphroneth

Banned
Would the Union consider an offensive into the CSA to be the best option in these circumstances:

- The British appear to be standing on the defensive in Canada therefore limited screening forces and demolitions should be sufficient on that front
- The Union blockade of the CSA has been broken but it will take time for the Confederacy to import arms & re-equip/re-deploy forces.
- The Union itself is now being blockaded so the current armament/supply situation is the best it's going to be without significant time to replace imported supplies.

Therefore "On to Richmond!"
Or is this too much of a gamble?
It's almost certainly far too much of a gamble. The absolute minimum for screening forces (what with the potential for the British to advance down the Richelieu-Hudson axis) is about five divisions less than I have them divert here - this relies on putting about one division each at all the points of contact and one each at the places the British could land troops, giving up any chance of preventing the British buildup, and fundamentally accepting that if the British advance they're quite likely to get to New York - and that means the possibility for McClellan to concentrate twelve divisions around Washington, if he leaves one at Baltimore (to defend against the British, natch) and pretty much accepts that the CSA's got the initiative in the west.

Twelve divisions is, you'll note, less than what JE Johnston has.

Making things worse is that you simply can't use the same single field army to both protect Washington and attack into the CSA, and that riverine supply is functionally impossible. So now you need to leave some of your forces in Washington (at the time the estimates for how much went as high as five divisions, and when McClellan went to the Peninsula they held back an oversize corps which I would count by my numbering as four divisions in addition to this) and thus the offensive manpower of the army could be limited to as low as three divisions (obviously unworkable) or as high as seven (still not really workable). But let's assume that for this campaign there's as many as nine divisions (100,000 men by the measure I've been using).

Now, the problem is that McClellan's forced to conduct an "overland" type campaign. He can't use even the Rappahannock for supply, so his supply base is going to be overland all the way from the northern water terminus of the Fredericksburg and Richmond railway - and there's good lateral communications for an enemy to strike against his sixty-five-mile-long supply route, even if he makes it to the gates of Richmond without fighting a battle.

But let's look at how it might go if there was a battle or two. Since his communications are completely impossible without that rail line, McClellan has to fight all the defensive positions along the line and he has to do so against superior forces. He can't turn the positions like Grant did because Grant used waterborne supply, so he has to fight head-on. Specifically, he has to fight at, say... Fredericksburg/Spotsylvania, the North Anna and Cold Harbor.


McClellan has no source of extra reinforcements and is outnumbered to begin with. If we assume that McClellan's substantially better in making assaults than Grant or Burnside (a factor of two) then we can calculate based on known casualty rates thus - assuming, of course, that McClellan additionally wins the battles (that is, gains control of the contested ground and can continue his advance) instead of doing what Grant did and losing.

Spotsylvania/Fredericksburg.
The Spotsylvania battle OTL saw Lee's army, outnumbered 2:1, inflict 18,000 casualties while taking 13,000 of his own. This means each of Grant's ten division slices inflicted 1300 casualties and each of Lee's five division slices inflicted 3600.
In this battle McClellan's ten division slices inflict 2300 casualties each, for 13,000, and Johnston's thirteen division slices inflict 1800 casualties each, for 23,400.

Johnston's remaining army is 117,000 and McClellan's is 76,600.

(Using Fredericksburg, meanwhile, is even worse though more appropriate. Lee's army there inflicted one casualty for every six present and Burnside's inflicted one casualty for every 27 present. Doubling the inflicted Union casualties per man rather than halving the inflicted Confederate casualties per man, you get McClellan's army inflicting only 7,400 casualties and taking 21,000).

At the North Anna, things are less bloody - Lee's army inflicted one casualty per 12 men and Grant's inflicted one casualty for every 53. This barely moves the needle for Johnston's army as McClellan inflicts about 1500 casualties, but the Union general takes roughly 5,000 even with the doubled efficiency.

Johnston's remaining army is 115,500 and McClellan's is 71,000.

Then we have Cold Harbor. At this battle Grant's army inflicted one casualty for every 18, and took one casualty for every four in Lee's army. This means McClellan's army would take about 14,500 casualties and would inflict 4,000.

When McClellan reaches Richmond, he has an army that's been reduced down to roughly 56,500, and Johnston still has 110,000. And remember, I've been assuming he won three battles which were tactical defeats for the Union...

The exact numbers will vary, but the point is pretty simple - McClellan's advance is forced by the constraints of the overland route to be parallel to the Confederate line of operations (that is, they can keep falling back to new fortified positions along their own supply lines) and he has no way to turn the positions because riverine supply is right out.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
As a side note, if we assume that McClellan loses Fredericksburg the first time in this potential - which is also useful as an examination of an ATL Overland Campaign - and might have to try again we should look at what Lincoln said about it. This is usually quoted approvingly as a sign Lincoln was far sighted:

· .. if the same battle were to be fought over again, every day, through a week of days, with the same relative results, the army under Lee would be wiped out to the last man, the Army of the Potomac would still be a mighty host, the war would be over, the Confederacy gone, and peace would be won at a smaller cost of life than it will be if the week of lost battles must be dragged out through yet another year of camps and marches, and of deaths in hospitals rather than upon the field.

So let's take the real strength at Fredericksburg and run it through the analysis a few times. I'm not following Lanchester here (and didn't for the above evaluation either) which would make the larger army more effective, and if Lincoln was indeed the far sighted chap he's supposed to be this should result in a triumph.

Confederates inflict 1 casualty for every 6.2 present, Union inflicts one casualty for every 29 present
Starting force: Union 122,000 PFD Confederate 78,500 PFD
First round casualties: Union 12,660, Confederate 4,210

I'll spare you the thirteen battles (the last of which involves a single Union regiment going up against over fifty thousand Confederate troops) but by the time the calculations are over the Union army's been destroyed and the Confederate army has 52,760 men left.

Applying that to the force sizes of TTL, meanwhile, the fifth battle sees the last of the Union troops wiped out with Johnston having lost barely a division's worth of men. Trying to attack down a single predictable axis of advance is very very bad.

(Of course, realistically what would happen is that after two battles, three at the most, McClellan's army would be so utterly wrecked and demoralized it'd refuse to fight. Lincoln didn't really understand this and felt bloody battles were what men wanted, but we know that that's not how it works.)
 

Saphroneth

Banned
Okay, I think I've got roughly what happened during Trent...


Course of events during Trent affair itself.

Ships encounter one another. Trent identifies self as British vessel.
San Jacinto fires warning shot without hailing, then fires live shell.
Trent heaves to.
Two cutters sent with Fairfax to board.
Fairfax only comes on board, announces his orders
Passengers offer threats
Fairfax's armed party comes on board
Moir refuses Fairfax's request for a passenger list
Slidell and Mason identify themselves (possibly Fairfax identifies one or both on sight)
Fairfax requests to search the Trent and take her as a prize.
Moir refuses to allow a search of the Trent or for her to be taken.
Fairfax does not force the issue.
Miss Slidell (Slidell's daughter) says she recognizes one of the Union officers as a recent dinner guest (when they came to Slidell's cabin?)
Slidell's daughter is made to let go of her father, and he gets out the window of his cabin. There is nearly a violent incident with Slidell's daughter and the marines (one account says she slapped Fairfax).
Mason and Slidell formally refuse to go voluntarily, but do not resist when removed with armed force.


Anyone spot something I missed or should replace?
 
I thought that in the interests of transparency I should acknowledge an earlier error on my part. Previously, I had suggested:
the liner Victoria has had to flood her magazines and withdraw after taking a particularly well aimed and fuzed 7" shell
Did Victorian wooden screw battleships have the ability to flood their magazines? From what little I've read, it seems to be a later development.

It turns out that actually, Victorian wooden screw battleships did have the ability to flood their magazine (or drown it, which seems to have been the more common terminology). For instance, HMS Nelson:
'Referring to the burning of the ship Lightning at Geelong, a correspondent of the Melbourne Argus, Mr. C. B. Payne, writes: "Will you kindly give me space in your columns to offer a suggestion to the owners and masters of ships, insurance offices, i.e., which is, that all ships (especially those carrying cargoes liable to spontaneous combustion) should be fitted with seacocks. By the mere turning of a key, a plentiful supply of water could be at once obtained on the immediate discovery of the fire. The pipes from the seacock could be led to the most convenient places in the hold, so that the water would be led to the very place of the fire. The magazines of the Nelson are fitted in this way, and a 12 in. pipe so led that I could drown the magazine within four minutes of the discovery of the fire. I offer this suggestion as I cannot but think that a plentiful supply of water at the spot where the fire first breaks out will, in nine cases out of ten, prevent the destruction of the ship." The Brisbane Courier, 15 November 1869.'

HMS Bombay:
'A plate was on the ship’s orlop deck communicating with the sea-cocks, by which the orlop deck could be flooded. Admiral Elliot asked for the condenser to be fitted for that purpose, but the officials of Chatham Dockyard thought it better to fit the sea-cocks for the purpose. It was turned on, when the fire broke out, and the orlop deck was several inches deep in water. The handling-room tank was turned on, and water let in there to flood the magazine.'(Army and Navy Gazette, 11 February 1865 p.4; evidence of Captain Colin A. Campbell)

HMS Royal Albert:
'THE HOLD- From the gunner's upper store-room we enter the lightroom (illuminated when occasion demands), from which are emitted the only rays ever suffered to penetrate to the magazine; which awful chamber, although remote from common accidents, and guarded with the utmost precaution, is nevertheless provided with water-pipes and cistern, as for the purpose of inundation in case of fire. The various cartridges are respectively taken from zinc boxes, which are so hermetically closed, that if it should suddenly be deemed necessary to drown the magazine, the water would flood them, without wetting the powder, which would be again fit for action, as soon as through another stop cock the fluid had been turned off into the hold' (Manchester Times, 1 April 1854 p.12)

It's not just a British development- e.g. the USS Missouri:
'We then heard the command to drown the fore-magazine of powder, but the answer was that it was impossible to go below. Then followed the order to drown the after-magazine, and we suppose it was done (there is always a water-pipe turned into the magazine in case of fire, and they have only to turn a tap to fill it with water, and should the fire be extinguished they can let out the water, and the casks being enclosed in copper, and watertight, the powder is not wetted).' (Cornwall Royal Gazette, Falmouth Packet and Plymouth Journal, 22 September 1843 p.1)

However, it doesn't apply to the Crimean gunboats, such as HMS Jasper, and also possibly to other small ships:
'In the meantime, Mr. Batt, supernumerary second master, had been sent with a party of men and Mr. Belloch, the gunner, to drown the powder magazine, but, there being no watercocks for such a purpose, water was obliged to be poured in by means of buckets and such other utensils from above as could be brought into play at the moment.' (Lloyd's Weekly Newspaper, 21 May 1854 p.5)

So there you have it.
 
he posting it anywhere else? The naval stuff was excellent.

one can still enjoy a work regardless of the ideology of the author/artist.
 

Skallagrim

Banned
In my opinion, this is an example of a great contributor being pushed out by way, way overzealous moderating. Reading the post that got him banned, it's clear that the wording is unfortunate, but the context absolutely makes it clear that Saphroneth considers slavery an atrocity (which word he used). But no clarification was asked for, no chance given to explain his wording. Just a blind assumption and a ban, end of story. This was too hasty a call, and I kind of hope that @CalBear might be persuaded to give the matter a second look.

Kicking someone for a limited period for saying something stupid is one thing. Demanding that he explains his exact meaning is also a good step. Maybe keeping an eye on someone with a habit of saying the exact suspicious thing again and again might be called for. Banning someone on the basis of an interpretation of his meaning - which, considering the unclarity of nuance in text-based discussion, might be a misinterpretation - is another thing altogether. (If Saphroneth has made all sorts of pro-slavery remarks in the past, consider the above as not written, but I'm unaware of anything like it. Certainly in this thread, he's always been clear on his disdain for it.)

Might this not all be an overhasty reaction in regards to a sensitive subject? Might a great contributor not be preserved for this forum yet?

If not, that's a real shame, and if he's posting this elsewhere, I too would like to know. I've enjoyed reading all the detailed discussions surrounding this TL.
 
In my opinion, this is an example of a great contributor being pushed out by way, way overzealous moderating. Reading the post that got him banned, it's clear that the wording is unfortunate, but the context absolutely makes it clear that Saphroneth considers slavery an atrocity (which word he used). But no clarification was asked for, no chance given to explain his wording. Just a blind assumption and a ban, end of story. This was too hasty a call, and I kind of hope that @CalBear might be persuaded to give the matter a second look.

Kicking someone for a limited period for saying something stupid is one thing. Demanding that he explains his exact meaning is also a good step. Maybe keeping an eye on someone with a habit of saying the exact suspicious thing again and again might be called for. Banning someone on the basis of an interpretation of his meaning - which, considering the unclarity of nuance in text-based discussion, might be a misinterpretation - is another thing altogether. (If Saphroneth has made all sorts of pro-slavery remarks in the past, consider the above as not written, but I'm unaware of anything like it. Certainly in this thread, he's always been clear on his disdain for it.)

Might this not all be an overhasty reaction in regards to a sensitive subject? Might a great contributor not be preserved for this forum yet?

If not, that's a real shame, and if he's posting this elsewhere, I too would like to know. I've enjoyed reading all the detailed discussions surrounding this TL.
If I ever get around to writing a presentable Civil War TL, I strongly doubt I'll put it on this forum.

I like this place, I really do, but things like this only serve to remind why this particular subject is too volatile. I just don't feel like dealing with it all.
 
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In my opinion, this is an example of a great contributor being pushed out by way, way overzealous moderating. Reading the post that got him banned, it's clear that the wording is unfortunate, but the context absolutely makes it clear that Saphroneth considers slavery an atrocity (which word he used). But no clarification was asked for, no chance given to explain his wording. Just a blind assumption and a ban, end of story. This was too hasty a call, and I kind of hope that @CalBear might be persuaded to give the matter a second look.

Kicking someone for a limited period for saying something stupid is one thing. Demanding that he explains his exact meaning is also a good step. Maybe keeping an eye on someone with a habit of saying the exact suspicious thing again and again might be called for. Banning someone on the basis of an interpretation of his meaning - which, considering the unclarity of nuance in text-based discussion, might be a misinterpretation - is another thing altogether. (If Saphroneth has made all sorts of pro-slavery remarks in the past, consider the above as not written, but I'm unaware of anything like it. Certainly in this thread, he's always been clear on his disdain for it.)

Might this not all be an overhasty reaction in regards to a sensitive subject? Might a great contributor not be preserved for this forum yet?

If not, that's a real shame, and if he's posting this elsewhere, I too would like to know. I've enjoyed reading all the detailed discussions surrounding this TL.

I agree. Also, as a general point, posters with extreme views often seem compelled to share them with the board at large, so in cases where a long-standing and prolific contributor seems to suddenly come out with something extreme, it's probably more likely that they just worded themselves poorly than that they're revealing some long-held bigoted view.
 
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