If they will not meet us on the open sea (a Trent TL)

Saphroneth

Banned
The above inspired partly by this gorgeous map of the Norfolk VA defences during the Civil War.


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I've read in another TL that Norfolk would be relatively easy to take; as we can see, it's actually bloody hard already! I had to work to find places to improve...
 
I just finished catching up with this tl last night and hoped for more soon and boom there is more. Thank you very much
 

Saphroneth

Banned
I just finished catching up with this tl last night and hoped for more soon and boom there is more. Thank you very much
The blog's been a bit of a distraction, along with further research that kind of makes me want to go back to the start and put in a better land campaign! But I'll try to keep it up.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
I kind of forgot, did GB (and Canada, by proxy) expanded SW after the war? ITTL, I mean.
Expanding southwest TTL - yes, but only very marginally. The little bit around Lake of the Woods was cut off and the British control all the islands in Puget Sound, but that's about it. The more significant annexations were the southern side of the St Lawrence and the Maine Bypass.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
I was wondering if Britain was trying to narrow the USA's access to the Pacific.
Nope - though the CSA has done that to some extent. Roughly speaking the CSA has Southern California. LA's site is in the Confederacy (State of Colorado), while San Francisco is still in the Union.

Both countries have a fairly substantial Pacific outlet, and both are building railroads to realize that.
 
Why couldn't Lincoln just sign the Emancipation Proclamation? The British hated slavery more than they hated the Americans. I would imagine doing so and GB would be like "Ok, we'll peace out under two conditions. One, you let British merchant ships trade freely as long as they don't give cannons to rebels. Let us give gunpowder and stuff for... whatever the South has to offer. Two, pay us up." The anaconda blockage won't work anymore, but the South would still be in a pickle with no Royal Navy help.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
Why couldn't Lincoln just sign the Emancipation Proclamation? The British hated slavery more than they hated the Americans. I would imagine doing so and GB would be like "Ok, we'll peace out under two conditions. One, you let British merchant ships trade freely as long as they don't give cannons to rebels. Let us give gunpowder and stuff for... whatever the South has to offer. Two, pay us up." The anaconda blockage won't work anymore, but the South would still be in a pickle with no Royal Navy help.
The war here wasn't about the Emancipation Proclamation in the slightest.


I'm not sure how much you're aware of the context of the Trent Affair, but basically:

OTL
The San Jacinto (a US ship) illegally stopped and boarded the Trent (a Royal Mail vessel) in international waters, taking two Confederate commissioners off as "contraband".
This incredibly offended the British, and they demanded an apology as soon as possible - specifically, the release of the commissioners.
The US backed down and released them, after some very tense days in Washington.

TTL
Lincoln asks for mediation instead
The British (as they had said) take this as a reason for war
And the war is on



Slavery had nothing to do with it, freedom of trade with the South had nothing to do with it, it was about the rights of the British in international waters. Every other Great Power supported the British on this one (French, Russia, Prussia, Austria) because the US was claiming the right to stop and search any ship in the world anywhere.
 
Ah sorry, I thought the Trent affair in this timeline was a reason the British got involved in the Civil war (while in ours it was resolved after some apologies)
 

Saphroneth

Banned
Ah sorry, I thought the Trent affair in this timeline was a reason the British got involved in the Civil war (while in ours it was resolved after some apologies)
From a certain point of view the British get involved in the Civil War in this timeline because of the Trent. They don't ally with the Confederacy or anything, but they certainly start fighting the Union in January 1862 and the combined pressure leads to the Union asking for peace by July.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
So here's another of my attempts to work out how a land campaign would go, including the points when decisions are made.



27 December (PoD) - decision by Lincoln to seek arbitration. As a consequence the Canadian militia continues mobilizing.
9 January - declaration of war by the UK.
21 January - news arrives in US.
22 Jan - attack on the unfinished Fort Montgomery, which may not yet have the news!
23 Jan - decision made in US to stand on the defensive in the south and with the CSA and to follow the "Montreal Plan". Primary goal is to take Montreal, using as large a chunk of the Army of the Potomac as possible. Decision also made to reinforce US coast.
Same day, some of the 62nd Foot take towns in Maine along the sled route.
28 Jan - strategic movements taking place to the coast, forming a brigade in each region and then continuing to rail regiments into position - slowly. Priority is in getting force up around Lake Champlain
4 Feb - someone works out the Union is going to need to take Neptune's Staircase (the Welland Canal) if they're going to have get gunboats present in sufficient force at Montreal to protect the planned crossing
10 Feb - Milne attacks Fort Monroe
14 Feb - decision made in Halifax to take Portland (the plan has been percolating for over a month, though)
15 Feb - movement to Canadian border complete for 1 division per position and 2 around Rouses Point (many of them quartered in Plattsburg during the poor weather). Rest of troops to follow.
22 Feb - landing near Portland (east of the Saco River), cuts off Portland
24 Feb - Portland taken. Operations start to clear Maine, using reinforcements from the Maritimes. Milne begins operations against the Delaware River.
26 Feb - Union begins defending Saco River line (concentrating troops from the coastal defences), Butler starts moving small parties of men out of Maine area, along roads southwest from Northumberland NH
5 Mar - Milne attacks NY
8 Mar - British troops begin to move along the Grand Trunk to Canada
14 Mar - Confederates begin to press their new advantages
17 Mar - Milne attacks Boston

Mid April - attack to try and take Neptune's Staircase
Early May - attack begins out of Rouses Point, Washington partially invested
Late May - battles around Montreal


Hopefully this doesn't show the British working too fast or the Union too slowly!
 
ah, sorry for the mess up

If you reread the early part of the timeline you will find that one of the critical mistakes the Union makes is in assuming the British are allied with the Confederacy. If it is possible to imagine experienced politicians and diplomats being confused, no reason why you should not be.
 
Saph, if you can manage to map out a land campaign that makes a lot more sense, what's the plan? Mapping out an alternate land campaign to TTL? Rebooting it? Rewriting the whole thing with an eye to Sealion Press-ing it?
Interested readers want to know.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
Saph, if you can manage to map out a land campaign that makes a lot more sense, what's the plan? Mapping out an alternate land campaign to TTL? Rebooting it? Rewriting the whole thing with an eye to Sealion Press-ing it?
Interested readers want to know.
Probably the rewrite, to be honest - both with some of the holes plugged, and because I think I can actually pull off combat writing and people should be interested. I've got my eye on doing a kind of fusion of the current style and the one I've used for prose sections.

I'd probably map first though because I'd want to make damned sure it makes sense - accuracy matters to me!
 

Saphroneth

Banned
Modifications to French tactical doctrine on receipt of new weapons (Chassepots are projected to start coming in in a month or so, the issues having been corrected)


1) Firing at range is more practicable now.
2) It is less possible to move in dense column than previously.
3) Shell-firing breechloaders mean dense formations must be avoided from further out
4) The attack with the bayonet is viable if the enemy can be suppressed

Upon making contact during the development of an attack, artillery will deploy at the longest practicable range with line of sight. The priority will be the enemy artillery.

The formation should deploy into two skirmish lines in staggered gaps. The former will advance to within distant rifle range and will begin to take the enemy line under fire, with the intent of suppressing them.

The latter will advance through the former and continue advancing to the next useful cover, where it will take up the role of suppression.

The first line will conduct passage of lines in turn, working towards the enemy position, until the last useful cover or within 300-400 metres (whichever is further back). This is the "start line"

Firing will be controlled by sous-officers and will be deliberate, unless an enemy attack develops or the order is given for final supporting fire, whereupon fire shall be quick.

The wing at the "start line" will set their sights, and will wait until the order is given; they are the "support" wing. The "attack" wing will fix bayonets and make ready. Sous-officers are to ensure that all the men in the attack wing have fixed bayonets, and none of the men in the support wing have done so; this is the identifier for who is to be in which wing for the final passage of lines.
The artillery will switch their focus to the enemy line at this time.

Upon the order being given to make the attack, the attack wing will advance at the double quickstep. The support wing will wait until the attack wing has advanced fifty paces, then commence final supporting fire to range and over the heads of the attack wing; this fire to persist until the smoke is too thick or the attack wing is too close. Similarly the artillery will lift fire when the attack wing is too close.
The attack wing will advance in skirmish order at the double quickstep, and cross the final 100 metres at a run.


(Obviously this doesn't cover everything, but it looks like an interesting exercise. It's somewhat of a modification of existing French attack-hard doctrine for the breechloader age, instead of doing what they did OTL and completely switch to entrenchments.)
 

Saphroneth

Banned
As to ITWNMUOTOS, my complaints were far more than broken telegraph lines and ships arriving one day early. Some of the problems of ITWNMUOTOS are:

* The British Empire commits to the Trent war with a speed and unanimity unheard of for a war where national survival was not at stake.
* The US does virtually nothing to prepare for the war.
* Britain does not inform the US envoy to Britain and allow him to return home on a US ship. This allows Britain to make several surprise attacks on the Union, but there are no political repercussions for this major breach of protocol.
* The logistical problems of supplying a large body of troops in British North America are downplayed, if not ignored.
* British ships are repeatedly sailing faster than they could at full steam, sailing unscathed through waters so shallow they would beach or even wreck, and being completely unaffected by severe storms that scattered and damaged real ships in OTL.
* A British ship that was decommissioned and in dock in Britain manages to capture a Union ship in Hong Kong.
* A British captain so inept he sunk his own ship in broad daylight in good weather sails up a river too shallow for his ship to pass to destroy a Union railroad bridge.
* The Union is unable to repair the bridge in spite of the bridge being a couple blocks away from a lumber yard and an iron works.
* Britain moves decides to produce an new type of ironclad that would be much smaller, less seaworthy, less powerful, and more experimental than the Monitor. They move from initial proposal to having a finished design in a 3 days, as opposed to the 127 it took for the Monitor.
* ITWNMUOTOS claims the Russian fortress of Bomarsund was reduced only by "sailing vessels with steam power", something that directly contradicts the facts that Bomarsund took "No great amount of damage" and that compelling its surrender required the deploying of large numbers of troops and artillery on land.
* ITWNMUOTOS claims that Moorsom shell fuses were reliable, even though a report by the Journal for Royal Artillery that is read by British commanders in ITWNMUOTOS concluded that the Moorsom fuses "will not stand the full service charges" and "It was considered a waste of ammunition to fire more of them on the present occasion, and not unattended with danger to to the bystanders" and that they switched to testing another type of fuse after "the failure of Moorsom's fuses".
* ITWNMUOTOS incorrectly claims all of the Union's "iron comes from Britain", when less than 1/3rd iron used in the US was imported.
* ITWNMUOTOS incorrectly claims the US initially had no troops or arms that they could move to defend the Canadian border, which requires ignoring the Department of New England, the Department of New York, and Burnside Expedition.

In short, ITWNMUOTOS is based on false assumptions; allows Britain to act more swiftly and unanimously than they did when national survival was at stake; and lets Britain ignore friction, logistics, and the laws of physics.



Let's go down the list.


1) The British Empire does not commit to the Trent War with a speed unheard of - it makes an ultimatum and then fulfils it. It does not need a unanimity unheard of because it can do everything it needs to do with existing resources, except for a couple of dozen new ships (mostly ironclad floating batteries).
2) The US does not do nothing to prepare for the war. They do nothing over OTL until the divergence - their problem is that the British have a fleet already in place which suffices to overwhelm them. Believe it or not, the coastal forts the British hit after Fort Delaware show massive upgrading compared to what was in place OTL.
3) That was not a breach of protocol at the time. The British do not detain the US envoy, nor do they make a surprise attack - instead they enact their ultimatum. They're actually being nicer in Open Sea than they would have been OTL since some indications are that their OTL plan would have had them attacking the moment they had heard the ultimatum was rejected; instead, the first military actions in the timeline take place after the confirmation of the declaration of war.
4) I don't ignore the logistical problems - they're just not as big as you seem to expect. For the full force of mobilized troops with modern weapons (150,000 with Enfield rifles and 120 Armstrong guns) a single ship with 800 tons of cargo would either fit a hundred and thirty rifle rounds per man or 1,000 shells per gun.
The rest of it is feeding people, and that's not outrageous - it's asking Canada (pop. 2.6 million) to feed another 50,000 or so men and perhaps 12,000 extra horses.
5) Since you say "repeatedly" I assume you can provide multiple examples of each. I'll admit to needing to tweak the arrival date by a day or so for the frigate reaching Bermuda, but for the most part I assumed the weather was "neutral".
6) Changed as per your identification of a legitimate mistake.
7) To claim a given officer made one mistake and therefore is inept in all senses is ludicrous; in any case, I've mentioned repeatedly that this is something I would correct, and there was considerable plausibility discussion after you quit this thread which was focused on whether it was possible which led to that decision.
8) Not quickly. If the bridge had been destroyed then it would not be a quick repair job - you could certainly get troops and probably light artillery past that point, but heavy guns would not be possible to move without substantial repair work.
9) This is a case of their modifying one of their existing designs. And you're wrong about some of that - the new ironclad (the Zodiac class, I Springsharped it out) was about 800 tons displacement, but as a properly built broadside ironclad was more powerful than the Monitor and just as seaworthy (due to having higher freeboard, 8-9 feet). It's also not experimental because they already had eight similar ironclads, and we know the French had built several ironclads very close to the size.
As for three days, my information suggests that they had plans in place to put them out to tender on event of a Trent War - that is, they had defined the requirements ahead of time as a contingency, to order as soon as possible. (In Britain a lot of the detail design work was done by the constructor.)
10) As per the sources I've used (including Gunboat! and Before The Ironclad) the key work of reducing the fort was the naval bombardment by large numbers of guns of 6" or greater calibre, including rifles.
11) The report, as has already been pointed out to you, said the use of the distant (super) charge resulted in the pre-detonation of Moorsom fuzes. Shells were normally fired with reduced charges; the distant charge was reserved for firing solid iron bolts.
12) All the Union's gun iron comes from Britain, as I corrected after once misstating it. I have tended to assume the Union would be able to continue their baseline production of rifles in large part, however - the real problem is the large hole created by lack of deliveries from overseas.
13) The US initially had no plans to move troops to the Canadian border; I don't see this is something it's possible to dispute, unless you can produce those plans.
As for troops available, the Department of New England and the Department of New York between them had 12,000 troops as of December 31 1861, which is not enough to defend the coasts of New York and New England let alone send troops to the border; Burnside's expedition is difficult because it is hard to tell when precisely it moved to Fort Monroe, and in discussion on the last few pages I've mentioned that I would have had Burnside withdrawn but the Port Royal expedition captured. Basically it's a wash between Burnside getting away and much of TW Sherman's force getting away, in terms of troops available to defend the border.

If you're interested, meanwhile, I've been putting together on the last few days an operational timeline of when troops get to where. If you have any criticism I'd love to hear it - it's good to have someone trying to poke holes, so long as they're sensible about it.



In short, ITWNMUOTOS is based on false assumptions; allows Britain to act more swiftly and unanimously than they did when national survival was at stake; and lets Britain ignore friction, logistics, and the laws of physics.

I believe I've answered most of the issues of false assumptions above.
Acting swiftly and unanimously - swiftly I don't think so, unanimously is not needed.
Ignoring friction, logistics and the laws of physics - I'm not sure I have them ignore friction because I was adding a day regularly to the time ships would get places as compared to the maximum speed of the slowest vessel in the force; ignoring logistics is not the case as far as I'm aware (though do give an example of how); I'd love for you to give an example of where I'm ignoring the laws of physics, especially as a matter of course. (Of course, I do also let the US get away with things - the 8" Parrott and 15" smoothbores are produced far faster than realistic in Open Sea.)
 
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