If they will not meet us on the open sea (a Trent TL)

Saphroneth

Banned
The Brits have to be worried about a Round 2 with someone. After all, McClellan is a general, and look at that railway headed for central Asia...


The RN is going to be changing emphasis, though. There may be a brief building slowdown while they test turret ships, roll out Elswick rifles and try and work out how to armour against them!
 

Saphroneth

Banned
How much of a difficulty, in practice, would the need to get the right position and movement vectors pose? I've seen it claimed that ramming would only work on stationary ships, which seems far too strong a claim and is difficult to reconcile with incidents such as the sinking of HMS Victoria in 1893.
It's very hard to deliberately ram a ship under power - Lissa saw dozens/hundreds of failed attempts. You need a significant manoeuvre advantage or the enemy just turns into the ram attempt and makes it useless.

Victoria was an accident and the captains did not expect to be in the presence of danger.
 
Last edited:
It's very hard to deliberately ram a ship under power - Lissa saw dozens/hundreds of failed attempts. You need a significant manoeuvre advantage or the enemy just turns into the ram attempt and makes it useless.

I suppose that makes sense, although I don't think it would be an insurmountable problem: during the ancient period ramming was the primary naval tactic, although warships were plenty manoeuvrable. I believe the common drill was for ships to act in pairs, with one pinning an enemy vessel and the other sailing into it from the side.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
I suppose that makes sense, although I don't think it would be an insurmountable problem: during the ancient period ramming was the primary naval tactic, although warships were plenty manoeuvrable. I believe the common drill was for ships to act in pairs, with one pinning an enemy vessel and the other sailing into it from the side.
I need to dig out the section in Warrior to Dreadnought where DK Brown addresses ramming - I think his overall conclusion is basically that ramming was almost as dangerous to the initiating ship as the target, and that it was unsuccessful the vast majority of the time. Remember that a ship under steam power can turn very quickly compared to an old rowing ship, and that a rowing ship was deliberately very light (and hence able to accelerate into the sides of an enemy, while also meaning that a ram could be very destructive for not much force behind it).

Essentially, if ramming was effective, then Lissa should have seen ramming actions take place successfully against ships under power... aha!




It is now clear that these views were mistaken61 but they were held strongly at the time and had a major influence on both tactical thinking and on ship design. In particular, the number of collisions showed the difficulty of controlling these ships and should have been seen as demonstrating the difficulty in achieving a deliberate collision. A detailed list62 of ramming attempts showed hardly any successes unless the victim was stationary and serious damage to the attacker was common. The seventy-four incidents considered are summarised in the table opposite. In most of the serious incidents, the damage itself was not very extensive and losses were due to inadequate subdivision (including leaving doors open). The rammer was as likely to be damaged as the intended victim. As a result of the importance attached to ramming, considerable emphasis was placed on end-on fire.

Brown, David K. Warrior to Dreadnought: Warship Design and Development 1860-1905 (Kindle Locations 598-605). Naval Institute Press. Kindle Edition.

And on Lissa specifically:


It is impossible to follow all the contortions the ships were put through; the main object on both sides was to ram any enemy as they made him out, and while they held on with tight nerves for their target, often charging towards them for the same purpose, the guns' crews waited for the shock and the chance to get in a broadside as they came together or raced past The collsions, near misses, touchings and scrapings, many between friends unable to get out of the way in time, were numerous, but at first none were fatal. Even the Affondatore failed to bring her prow into contact with such a ripe target as the Kaiser in two attempts, although she wrought fearful damage in the timber upperworks with 300-pounder shells at pistol-shot range. The Kaiser for her part, passed on from this desperate affair to try and ram the large frigate Re di Portogallo, which was steaming at her with the same intent, and spinning her wheel over at the last moment made contact abreast the Italian's engine room, but at far too fine an angle to enter. Instead she scraped down the iron side, losing her bowsprit and taking a broadside of shells which brought down her foremast, turned her gun decks into shambles and started numerous fires. The Maria Pia, astern of the Portogallo, put two more shells into her as she came past and she retired to put out fires and reorganize the fighting decks. Meanwhile, around what had been the Italian centre, Tegetthoff, who had been no more successful in ramming than Persano, saw through the fog of battle the Re d'ltalia apparently disabled; he made straight for her, his flag captain conning from the mizzen rigging. The Italian's rudder had been damaged by collision or a lucky shell and she couldn't turn her side as the Ferdinand Max's stem approached at full speed, something over 10 knots, and drove straight in, tearing a gap of about 140 square feet, half below water. The Austrian flagship reversed engines and withdrew; the Re d'Italia listed slowly to starboard, suddenly lost stability, rolled to port and went down. Meanwhile a small Italian gunboat, Palestro, dashing in heroically to aid the ironclad, received a shell in her wardroom which set it alight and forced her to retire; later she blew up as the flames reached the magazine. These were the only ship losses of the battle. For the rest, the astonishing series of abortive charges, scrapes and accidental collisions punctuated by broadsides at point-blank swinging targets continued until early afternoon. Then Persano led his scarred ships back to Ancona, while Teggethoff anchored his off Lissa, evidently the victor in possession of the field.

Padfield, Peter. Battleship (pp. 37-38). Thistle Publishing. Kindle Edition.

But the main lesson drawn from the battle was the power of the ram. The dramatic picture of the Re d'ltalia disappearing at one blow, while so much gunnery had hardly accomplished anything, drove out all power of rational analysis. The facts, clear enough in all reports, were that ramming, tried and accidentally achieved scores of times by dozens of ships in ideal conditions, had failed every time it had been attempted against a ship under command; the single success had been against a ship unable to steer. Individual reports showed how a ship about to be rammed could, by a sudden turn of the helm, herself become the rammer, though at too sharp an angle to be decisive. However, it must be remembered that steam was still in its infancy at sea, and naval officers, sail-trained and sail-thinking, while professing to despise engines, held them in some awe. Besides there was already a strong school, apparently logical and of French origin, in favour of ramming. The argument was: engines gave free movement, thus the ability to close and bring the whole gigantic momentum of the ship against the enemy at his most vulnerable point below the waterline, below armour. And compared with the energy of a ship in motion even the largest gun was little better than a pea-shooter. Such a logical approach took little account of an enemy's evasive tactics. Practical experiment with models or small steam boats might have put it into perspective and explained the extraordinary inefficiency of the ram in its own conditions at Lissa. This is clear from hindsight and in the light of modern theory; what was clear in 1866 was that the ram had proved itself in battle, and this led naval constructors and most naval tacticians up false trails for decades.

Padfield, Peter. Battleship (pp. 38-39). Thistle Publishing. Kindle Edition.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
Something I should note, though, is that Fisher TTL is not The Royal Navy TTL. They're likely to include the Ram, and though they may be a bit suspicious of it (in 1865 - there were some ramming attempts made in the American War but with mixed success) it's something they'd still consider a useful addition to the armament of a ship.

Of course, a lot depends on just how things break down with Austria, Prussia, Italy and the rest of Germany. I'm sort of dreading trying to work out where the battle lines would be drawn in the event of a breakdown in the German Confederation, especially since there's not great English sources period on the OTL western theatre of that confrontation...
 
I need to dig out the section in Warrior to Dreadnought where DK Brown addresses ramming - I think his overall conclusion is basically that ramming was almost as dangerous to the initiating ship as the target, and that it was unsuccessful the vast majority of the time. Remember that a ship under steam power can turn very quickly compared to an old rowing ship, and that a rowing ship was deliberately very light (and hence able to accelerate into the sides of an enemy, while also meaning that a ram could be very destructive for not much force behind it).

Essentially, if ramming was effective, then Lissa should have seen ramming actions take place successfully against ships under power... aha!

[snip]

Good post, although I'm not sure that a lighter ship would be good for ramming (surely you'd want a heavier one, to increase momentum?). Am I to take it, then, that you agree with TTL's Jackie Fisher that spar torpedoes would be the best weapon at this point in naval technology?
 

Saphroneth

Banned
Good post, although I'm not sure that a lighter ship would be good for ramming (surely you'd want a heavier one, to increase momentum?).
Rowing ships were all light construction, so the light attacking ship could accelerate fast (and suddenly) and the light defending ships would be easily damaged. I'm explaining why ramming worked in the age of galleys.

Am I to take it, then, that you agree with TTL's Jackie Fisher that spar torpedoes would be the best weapon at this point in naval technology?
No. I think Fisher would consider spar torpedoes the best weapon for a specific purpose, but I happen myself to think that - given the Elswick gun, which has the performance of the real British RML guns - it's guns. It's pretty much always been guns, actually, it's just that sometimes the heaviest guns haven't been available.

Put simply I'm aware of only one period in history when the strongest armour could deflect the strongest guns afloat even at close range, and it's pretty much the period between the Warrior entering service and the sudden mass introduction of AP guns over the course of 1862-3 (Palliser shell, the 300 pounder Armstrong gun, the 8" Parrott which could just about pierce in overload, the steel shot for the 68 pounder, the 100 pounder Somerset Cannon and the 15 inch Dahlgren).
 

Saphroneth

Banned
Incidentally, imagine trying to work all this out at the time!


Examples of possible Silly Ideas TTL which I don't think were tried OTL:

Underwater-projecting Spar Torpedoes
Trident Rams to avoid dodging manoeuvres
Submersible ram
Very long axial gun using slow burning powder to achieve high velocity
Armoured Boarding Vessel

A giant 36 inch mortar mounted in an old screw liner. (oh, wait, that's HMS Superb and it already showed up TTL)
 

Saphroneth

Banned
For instance, the Army!
Given that it's the British Army looking for a justification, they might need to invent the RAF.


More seriously, though, this British Army size is actually the same as it was in 1880 (at least in terms of number of regiments) and also in 1890. The difference is more in keeping everything up to strength - and it's been dramatically proven that there's a huge effectiveness difference between having ready-to-go home battalions and not. (This is likely IMO to cause stronger arguments against the paired battalion -system.)
 
Last edited:
More seriously, though, this British Army size is actually the same as it was in 1880 (at least in terms of number of regiments) and also in 1890. The difference is more in keeping everything up to strength - and it's been dramatically proven that there's a huge effectiveness difference between having ready-to-go home battalions and not. (This is likely IMO to cause stronger arguments against the paired battalion -system.)

Was there a difference in effectiveness between the first 25 Regiments of Foot which had two battalions versus the single battalion Regiments? If not that would suggest the paired battalion system can work you just can't completely strip the home battalion.
 
Was there a difference in effectiveness between the first 25 Regiments of Foot which had two battalions versus the single battalion Regiments? If not that would suggest the paired battalion system can work you just can't completely strip the home battalion.

Each battalion has two depot companies that stay home and mange the supply of replacements so, at least in theory, you can send every regular battalion abroad.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
Was there a difference in effectiveness between the first 25 Regiments of Foot which had two battalions versus the single battalion Regiments? If not that would suggest the paired battalion system can work you just can't completely strip the home battalion.
The difference (as I understand it) is like this.


The British Army as it currently stands has 149 battalions (some of which are in multi-battalion regiments) but those battalions are largely all independent units. It is possible to deploy the 1/15th and 2/15th to the same station, or the 1/16th and the 2/16th to India and Canada at the same time, with only a very short notice. (This actually happened during the crisis reinforcements of OTL Trent, 1/16th was overseas and both battalions of the 15th regiment were at home but that didn't stop them just shoving 2/16th and the entire 15th on ships as part of the first eight battalions that left to go to Canada).
The job of handling recruitment, training and replenishment (i.e. getting recruits to the state they can join a regiment) is handled by depots, which don't go overseas. What this means is that a battalion comes home from overseas to recover and replenish, though it is possible in a pinch to send a replacement draft directly to the theatre (as was done with the Canadian garrison in summer 1861).
Indeed, during the Crimea the total home army consisted of something like five battalions plus embodied militia (and the depots, of course).


The British Army under later reforms consisted of about the same number of battalions, but the battalions were linked. That means that in large part the home ones inevitably become to some extent training commands (i.e. regularly stripped of their best men) and leads to all kinds of faff when you want to actually use your home reserve - either you accept lower quality troops on average due to short-service and the home battalions being formed of the recently inducted men, or you go through several battalions picking a company or two out of each to use.
 
Last edited:

Saphroneth

Banned
Okay so the issue was more the abolition of the depot companies rather than move to two battalion regiments?
I'll admit that I've not read the actual Acts in detail, but my understanding is that the problem was the simultaneous move from long to short service (so the average infantryman is less experienced) and from independent to linked battalions (so one battalion has men who are generally speaking older and have been in the army longer). The combination means that the home battalions are on average far less experienced.

Make no mistake, any future reforms are something that's doing my head in. It may not have resulted in any actual danger for the Empire, but the Cardwell Reforms as-executed really damaged the social position of the army and British minor crisis response without much actual benefit in return.

The seven year service time of Cardwell's reforms really falls between two stools - it's too long to generate the desired large number of reserves, but it's too short to allow for the kind of brushfire wars which the British Empire should be able to fight without breaking a sweat as you don't have enough men old enough to stand the pressures of campaign - and it means that lots of men in their mid-twenties with no transferrable skills are being discharged, resulting in a prevalent social problem.


One idea I had was something like this:
Keep long service. link the battalions, but keep the depots as they were and use the linking largely as a reason to associate regular units with militia (each regiment has two regular battalions and two linked militia battalions). Have the associated militia units do more training than they were allocated in OTL, perhaps by making it optional but paid (or by making it so that units which perform better in the compulsory portion of the training get a bonus). Include exercises on the divisional scale, with the idea being that in time of war each regiment would have two regular battalions and one militia battalion mobilized for the field or overseas, and the remaining militia battalion would be used as garrison.

If you keep the ~150 regular infantry battalions, that means a theoretical mobilization strength of 225 battalions (with each brigade consisting of two regular and one militia) and another 75 battalions at home as garrison so the UK is not seriously threatened. You can then either intermix regulars and militia so each brigade is a mix (thus allowing the militia to avoid serious danger unsupported by regulars) or preferentially send mobilized militia overseas to free up Regulars for the UK, or even both - theoretically at that slate of activation then the British (with only the number of home regular battalions present at the start of Trent, i.e. 47 regulars, 1 rifle and 8 guards) could provide for a war:

1 Brigade of Guards for the field
24 brigades of regulars plus militia for the field
And 17 brigades of militia to send overseas if needed
plus 25 brigades of militia to defend the UK.

At the normal British pattern that's basically six army corps available on very short notice, and if they're defending the UK instead of operating on the Continent that's more like sixteen of the things (though they'd be mostly militia by that point, functionally the militia would be used as fixing forces and the regular-laced army corps would do the manoeuvre work).




It's easy to write up reforms the Union army might use, because they were Doing It Wrong and are going to not mind spending a bit more money in order to Do It Right. The British are Doing It Right, though their potential continental army is a bit small, but inevitably there's going to be the urge to cut the budget a bit...
 
And of course, if you look at comparisons between the British Army and other armies on a pounds per man basis... the British are paying out the nose compared to everyone else IIRC.

Of course, thats because of their setup as a structured professional army and their high training levels... but you might have some idiot politicians who don't quite grasp this.
 
And of course, if you look at comparisons between the British Army and other armies on a pounds per man basis... the British are paying out the nose compared to everyone else IIRC.

Of course, thats because of their setup as a structured professional army and their high training levels... but you might have some idiot politicians who don't quite grasp this.

Oh hells yes, just look through Hansard whenever the Army Estimates came up.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
So here's a bit of a comparison of the OTL British gun development program, their foot-tons (total and per inch) and when they came into service. In each case it'll be the highest powered guns of the most powerfully armed ship, by when that ship completed.
For the first couple these are estimated, but for the rifles I can use Brasseys. As a point of reference, the Passaic, Canonicus and Miantonomoh class monitors of the US Navy had a resistance of about 80 foot tons per inch on their turrets, with the first US warship with heavier armour being the Monterey (entered commission 1893). When I hit the Monterey's timeframe I'll stop.


1861 (Warrior)
68 pounder 95 cwt (smoothbore)
1536 total, 61 per inch

1864 (Achilles)
Somerset cannon (smoothbore)
2260 total, 78 per inch

1866 (Bellerophon)
RML 9 inch 12 ton gun
3681 total, 130 per inch

1868 (Hercules)
RML 10 inch
5408 total, 172 per inch

1869 (Monarch)
RML 12 inch 25 ton
7190 total, 190 per inch

1873 (Devastation)
RML 12 inch 35 ton
9566 total, 254 per inch

1879 (Dreadnought)
RML 12.5 inch 38 ton
14070 total, 358 per inch

1881 (Inflexible)
RML 16 inch
27960 total, 556 per inch

1886 (Colossus)
BL 12 inch mk II-III
18130 total, 480 per inch (note drop - this may be associated with the introduction of forged-steel shells?)

1888 (Rodney)
BL 13.5 inch
35,230 total, 830 per inch

1888 (Benbow)
BL 16.25 inch
54,390 total, 1065 per inch

1895 (Majestic)
BL 12 inch Mk 8 (wire)
33,940 total, 900 per inch (another drop considered worth it for other reasons).



This should give you some appreciation of how much more powerful the USN is going to be OTL compared to TTL - in 1890 their most powerful warships were, roughly speaking, built such that they would have trouble with Achilles.
TTL, their gun development might lag the OTL British one a bit but it'll probably be broadly comparably by the early-mid 1870s.
 
14 June - 10 July 1865

Saphroneth

Banned
14 June

In order to attempt to head off an undirected movement for reform, the Duke of Cambridge asks for officers connected with both the regular army and the recent militia callout to raise any objections or problems they have with the current system of operation of the British Army. His hope is that a forthright examination, done in-house, will allow for any objectionable issues to be discovered and corrected before they can be used as a lever for a reform that would destroy the army's efficient functioning.


16 June

Several Brazilian guns are set up to attack any movement by Paraguayan shipping along the Riachuelo, in lieu of assistance from the now badly damaged Brazilian navy. Pedro Ignácio Meza (the victorious Paraguayan commander) is nervous about using his advantage to attempt to finish off the Brazilian riverine fleet, considering that his success was only due to the action of surprise.


20 June

Prussia makes a "clarifying statement" that they are dismayed by the agitation over the Polish issue. There was never any intent to cause objection to the German Confederation, and no support of any kind was given to Poland in advance of the de facto recognition of Poland as an independent state (it is now looking like there will be no major Russian summer offensive this year either, and the Polish are settling into a somewhat guarded state of independence). The official statement also notes that the alternative would be active cooperation in the suppression of the Polish uprising, an action which the Prussian subjects of Polish ancestry might object to.
The statement does not mention one way or the other the three big Krupp guns obtained through unknown means by Poland, though of course by now there are many more heavy guns on order.


24 June

Justo José de Urquiza contacts the Paraguayan president Lopez, mentioning his interest in discussing the current situation. The provincial governor (of the provinces of Corrientes and Entre Rios, or in other words most of Argentinia to the east of the Parana river) has never had great relations with Buenos Aires, and the Paraguayan victory has led him to be... interested.


26 June

Already a number of letters have begun to arrive in Horse Guards, detailing the various gripes, issues and problems on which the Duke of Cambridge requested information. One of the points which draws interest from the Duke is the complaint about the inefficient nature of the militia training - in effect, each battalion is trained for a month (roughly) but for nearly three-quarters of this month some companies are missing and are at the rifle range. This means that there is only time for the basics of battalion drill and that most drill is company drill, a situation which the training officers consider is distinctly sub optimal. (It is also mentioned that there is no time for open order drill, which parallels the Duke's experiences with Canadian militia - they could form line, but not skirmish except for the flank companies and that not well).

Among the other issues raised are the usual ones of supply quantity and organization, the thorny problem of Purchase, one letter which complains about the Hythe musketry method (claiming that it is all either glaringly obvious, unutterably boring or ridiculously petty, citing the making of a record of every shot and the way that the rifle ranges must be paced out) and an interesting point about the "India Problem" (to whit, the India Problem is that men may not be sent overseas to India unless they are both twenty years of age and a year or more in the service).

Another issue which may come up in the near future is what to do with the 100th Foot (The Prince of Wales's Royal Canadian). A regiment recruited from British North America, in the main, there are suggestions that it (along with the RCR) should be assigned to form the nucleus of a Canadian Army upon the confederation of the colonies. While this would necessitate a shifting of the numbers, the 101st-109th Foot are not especially attached to their numbers (which were only assigned in 1862).

At this point, however, Cambridge has made no decisions on what to recommend.


29th June

The first Rodman 20 inch gun is tested, after many delays resulting from an investigation into Rodman's loyalty to the Union and into possible malfeasance in office. The official verdict has not been published, and the various hearings have delayed work on his great piece.
Rodman's gun has much larger powder charges than the equivalent Dahlgren gun, at two hundred pounds of gunpowder for the full charge.
Starting somewhat smaller, Rodman works his way up towards the full charge. Performance with the 100 pound charge is similar to that of the Dahlgren gun, but Rodman notes that there is a definite tendency for the gun to belch forth powder unburned. This suggests that the gun barrel is too short.
Using the full 200 pound charge results in only a relatively marginal increase in muzzle velocity, and Rodman determines to go away and do some calculations and experiments - specifically, as to the effect of smaller grained powder on the pressure within the barrel of a gun. He notes that the ideal size for large grained powder is that it should complete burning just as the shot exits the barrel.


4 July

The Puritan formally enters commission, though there is plenty of work still to go and she has not yet had her sea trials. She is expected to make fifteen knots, though when this is brought up more than a few naval officers are heard to quietly chuckle.


7 July

The Ironclad committee in Britain determines to fund two fully rigged turret vessels, one to Reed's design (to be designated the Monarch) and one to the design of Cowper Coles (speculatively named Captain).
Also on this date, Lewis Carroll (Charles Lutwidge Dodgson) publishes Alice's Adventures in Wonderland, an odd and surreal book.


8 July

The A'a and the Pahoehoe are declared completed, to much fanfare.
Powerful breastwork monitor designs, with built-up wooden sides for oceanic transit (to be removed once the destination is reached) these two ships are to travel to Hawai'i in company with one of the Royal Navy's steam ships of the line - and plenty of colliers. The voyage is likely to be long, but it is felt to be worthwhile - Reed's design for the breastwork monitors is such that they have a lot of "growth room", and could theoretically have their guns replaced with guns of nearly double the weight without excessively endangering their freeboard or stability once in Pearl Harbour. (The growth room is a necessary design element, guns have already changed twice since the initial design).


10 July

A formal request is made by the committee on Canadian Confederation that the British Government (and Crown) rule on whether Canada should be officially styled as a Kingdom, a Dominion or a Confederation.
Also on this date, Napoleon III finalizes an adjustment to the Code Napoleon - removing the article that states that the word of an employer is to be given greater weight in a legal case than that of the employee.
 
Top