If the Third Reich took over Britain, who would have led the colloborationist Gov?

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: After 1900' started by IntellectuallyHonestRhino, Nov 25, 2018.

  1. Thon Taddeo Well-Known Member

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    Since that did not happen in any of the countries the Nazis occupied OTL, I doubt it would happen in occupied Britain. Sauckel's men probably will recruit/kidnap Britons to be used as forced labor in the Reich like they did from all over Europe OTL, but the absence of the Western Front means there is a smaller manpower shortage, so less forced labor would be needed.
     
  2. eltf177 Well-Known Member

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    Mosley said in his biography he would have refused any offer made by the Nazis. You can take that for what it's worth, written after the war.

    Edward may or may not play along...
     
  3. raffaele gaggioli Well-Known Member

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    Yeah , for some reason i don't believe him
     
  4. David T Well-Known Member

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    From Harold Nicholson's Diaries, January 23, 1943:

    "Kingsley [Martin] and Aneurin [Bevan] start a hare by saying that Ll. G. was a finer man than Churchill. Churchill is 'adolescent', which is suitable in times of emotional strain. Ll. G. is the wise statesman. I say that Ll. G., if he had not been so gaga, would have been our Petain. They agree to this, but still say he is a great man..."
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2018
  5. ShortsBelfast Events, dear boy, events

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    You can be a fascist and a thoroughly unpleasant human being and still be a patriot of course. The first two RAF pilots killed in the Battle of Britain were both members of the BUF, something the National Front was always very proud of. Mosley did call for the BUF to co-operate fully with the war effort and, unlike Maule Ramsay, there is no suggestion that he was in contact with the German intelligence services.
    I suspect that Mosley would nonetheless have sought a role in a defeated Britain, whether or not he would have got one is another matter. He hadn't the popular support for a collaborationist regime and wasn't as Nazi as William Joyce for a purely puppet regime with only a fig-leaf of legality.
     
  6. David T Well-Known Member

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  7. eltf177 Well-Known Member

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    That he did, but he did spend a good chunk of the war under arrest...
    Again agree, he'll get some sort of post although it might not be very high...
     
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  8. Father Maryland Enemy of Neo Secesh Everywhere

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    To some extent I agree (Though I don't know the particulars on Mosley). Just because people are fascists/racists/assholes doesn't mean they are immediately going to start goose stepping for hitler. Anymore then all socialists/communists followed Stalins every word.

    Though that might not be the best analogy since Moscow did have much more successful and tighter control over the majority of the world's Communist parties then Hitler ever achieved over the various fascist movements.
     
  9. ShortsBelfast Events, dear boy, events

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    Varied from country to country. Quisling in Norway was an active traitor. The Rexist leader Degrelle was an enthusiastic collaborator. Pucheu, Bichellone and Laval in France were more nuanced and Couve de Murville and Mitterand even more so. And de la Roque was locked up by the Nazis. Just the sort of patriotic fascist they didn't want ruling France!
     
  10. Julius Vogel So

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    So I had never heard of "Maule Ramsay" before this post and looked him up on Wikipedia. As I read his page I saw he married a widow of a MP who died on the Western Front in 15 and her married name was quite familiar to me and it turns out that I know her grand-daughter (from her first marriage) through local politics.
     
  11. viperjock Well-Known Member

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    Hitler wasn’t a fan of the German Monarchy. I don’t think he would make putting the Duke of Windsor back on the throne a priority.
    Here is a twist: what if the Nazis end the monarchy? They could order Parliment to declare the monarchy void or make ending the monarchy a condition of a peace agreement. If the Royal Family escapes to Canada they would now be officially unrecognized by the puppet regime. What was the Nazi policy toward the Norwegian and Dutch Royals OTL?
    The Germans could divide Great Britain into administrative zones. England becomes an unoccupied zone like Vichy. Scotland and Wales are occupied. The Irish Republic moves into the North and Hitler approves to keep the Irish neutral. Northern Ireland could also remain under the control of unoccupied England.
     
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  12. ShortsBelfast Events, dear boy, events

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    An interesting figure Maule Ramsay and a living disproof of the misconception that thoroughly evil figures must lack a sense of humour. He was the author of such parodies as "Hark the hair oiled angels sing /Mrs Simpson's pinched our King" and the anti-semitic (but wickedly funny) version of "Onward Christian Soldiers" that the Guards had to be banned from singing when Hore-Belisha was War Minister.
     
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  13. Julius Vogel So

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    That is amazing.

    Now my main problem is trying to decide whether or not to mention these general facts - She's very interested in her actual grandfather but I'd rather not mention I came to that knowledge via Ramsay
     
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  14. Quintuplicate Member

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    What would happen to Common Law? Would there still be juries? (Seeing as juries are Germanic-derived.)
     
  15. ShortsBelfast Events, dear boy, events

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    Unless she is from the BNP or the more rabid wing of UKIP, I wouldn't bring Ramsay up at all. He is not the kind of connection that most people would point to with pride! You can look her grandfather up on WWI sites and replicate the information you received from looking up He Who Must Not Be Named and then say that you gleaned the information from those sites.
     
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  16. Augenis Latvia isn't real

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    If Lloyd George became the British Petain, then there'd be some dramatic irony about people who contributed to Germany's fall in WWI becoming her underlings in WW2...
     
  17. mudhead Little-Known Member

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    From a speech at Stockport (14 November 1936), The Manchester Guardian (15 November 1936), quoted in Hugh Dalton, The Fateful Years. Memoirs 1931-1945 (London: Frederick Muller Ltd, 1957), p. 151.
     
  18. ShortsBelfast Events, dear boy, events

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    I wasn't aware of that speech but OTL Cripps (like a lot of socialists) gradually shifted from pacifism following Guernica, Kristallnacht, the gunning down of refugees by aircraft during the fall of Poland and France and the London Blitz. All a bit later than November 1936.
     
  19. stodge Member

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    Kenneth Macksey in his book "Invasion" based on a successful German invasion in July 1940, also ruled out Mosley quoting from his biographer so assuming Mosley doesn't find a way out of Brixton prison to take part in any fighting he ends up being guarded by German jailers.

    Macksey offered Major General JFC Fuller (Ret) as a possible puppet PM - in his book, Macksey describes Churchill "persuading" Fuller to lead an interim administration before the Germans take over. Fuller was known to the German military and respected for his views on tank warfare - he was also anti-democracy.

    MY personal view is the most likely candidate to lead a collaborationist Government was Sir Samuel Hoare - especially if Laval was in a position of influence in Vichy.
     
  20. raffaele gaggioli Well-Known Member

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    Was there anyone who actually liked Mosley?
    The more i read about him, the more he looks like the fascist version of Meg from Family Guy