If the proposed FB-22 wasn't cancelled

In 2006 the proposed FB-22 was cancelled. If it wasn't would it have had an impact in Iraq and Syria?

You'd probably have to butterfly the OTL cutback on the regular F-22 somehow to keep the line going while development continued. Third, it's a stealthy F-111/F-15E equivalent, and not much use in a low-intensity environment save for taking wear and tear off older aircraft. (It is very fun in CMANO though)

The only way I can see it happening is if a perceived need for a long-range stealthy aircraft emerges. Which means a high-end threat in the production period instead/in addition to a low-end one.
 
The number of F22s and possibly FB22's might very well have reached the very high hundreds if not the 1000s had the whole project not been sabotaged by the Senators and Congress persons with collusion from the DOD who made sure that the sub contracting factories making the parts etc for this plane was spread pretty much evenly across all the states for purely political reasons

So rather than allow for a fair and honest bidding with the 'lowest bidder' winning said contract there was instead a very 'un-capitalist' political round of horse trading that made sure that any given Congress person etc could point towards the project and tell his or her voters that they had made sure that they had bought jobs into the state.....vote for me!

This resulted in delays and serious cost overruns - which in the face of the peace dividend from 1991 as well as the current lack of need to have as large a military as we did 25 years ago made the project easy to kill despite the aircraft types obvious advantage over the F15 Eagle

Had a correctly managed project that had an honest tendering process been conducted without the level of political interference we saw OTL then the project would have been much cheaper and would have experienced fewer delays.

This 'might' have resulted in the project surviving beyond the 195 airframes built and the F15 and F15 Strike eagle fleets being replaced with the more capable F22s and the proposed F/B22

As it is F22s have conducted a number of missions over Syria and have moved mud on over 200 occasions.

It will be interesting to see if the US restarts F22 production following last years legislation to explore the options of building up to 194 more airframes in the face of Russian and Chinese aircraft closing the quality gap - also there was talk about repealing the ban on selling it to allies.

If so perhaps these aircraft if built will be built as 'Strike Raptors' with a greater Onus on Multirole use.
 
A lot of decisions were made at about that time in the expectation that the F35 was just around the corner; the FB22 was cancelled and the F22 curtailed, the Sea Harrier slated for early retirement and the RAAF bought Super Hornets. With the delays to the F35 the f22/FB22 and Sea Harrier decisions look stupid/wrong and now the USAF is saddled with a very old average fleet age which needs substantial work to keep competitive and the British were left with no fixed wing aircraft on their carriers after 2010 although the RAAF is looking good.

If the USAF decided that the F35 was going to be a few years later then they might have decided to build more F22s and maybe then the FB22 would have gotten over the line.
 

Ak-84

Banned
When did IOTL the F35's issue start appearing in earnest? I don't think the F35 being a potential piece of shyt was on the radar in 2006.
The FB-22 also had to contend with the fact that the USAF had learned from interrogations with captured personnel, (to its shock) that Iraqi AD was able to track the F117 just fine. And on regular RADARS not the old HF/VHF against which stealth has a known vulnerability, but regular SA-3 and SA-6 search RADARS.
In the decade since the massive increase in processing power has made it less likely for stealth to be as much of a magic bullet it was before.
 
When did IOTL the F35's issue start appearing in earnest? I don't think the F35 being a potential piece of shyt was on the radar in 2006.
The FB-22 also had to contend with the fact that the USAF had learned from interrogations with captured personnel, (to its shock) that Iraqi AD was able to track the F117 just fine.

"But the F-117 is LOW observable, not NO-observable".

"wing leaders had privately prepared themselves for F-117 losses as high as 50 percent on the first night."

In the decade since the massive increase in processing power has made it less likely for stealth to be as much of a magic bullet it was before.

And computer power helped stealth along too. And guided weapons. The FB-22 has a considerably more advanced design and can attack from a considerable distance with SDB glide bombs. Unlike the F-117, it doesn't have to fly straight over the target.
 
Iraqi AD was able to track the F117 just fine. And on regular RADARS not the old HF/VHF against which stealth has a known vulnerability, but regular SA-3 and SA-6 search RADARS.

I once read about a Mirage F1 doing an on again off again chase against an F117 in 91.

That's all fine and dandy but no F117s were shot down either by interception or predictive fire or AAA barrages, so simple tracking is of limited utility.
 

Ak-84

Banned
Yup. The operations guys never thought of stealth as anything but an advantage, one which a clever enemy could overcome. The political and military leadership however after 1991 convinced themselves that stealth was unbeatable magic. It took the shock of Kosovo shootdown and the post 2003 interviews to convince them otherwise.

And computer power helped stealth along too. And guided weapons. The FB-22 has a considerably more advanced design and can attack from a considerable distance with SDB glide bombs. Unlike the F-117, it doesn't have to fly straight over the target.
Not really relevant to our discussion though. The increase in processing power means that RADAR software can potentially identify the return from stealth aircraft, rather than using it in the background. In addition you have much faster datalinks than could be imagined in 1991 let alone the 1970's and 80's. Stealth is not all aspect (it basically cannot be) and if the enemy has multiple RADARs in different locations the attacking aircraft is going to be more visible since as people say, he'll be ass on to someone, and with fast data links, the AD Command can get that someone's data very quickly.

The concept is not a bad one, but a difficult sell in 2006 and might be revisited with the Su-37's performance now being seen. But if it comes with the Nighthawks tradeoffs, then it probably is not worth it anymore.

Riain said:
I once read about a Mirage F1 doing an on again off again chase against an F117 in 91.

That's all fine and dandy but no F117s were shot down either by interception or predictive fire or AAA barrages, so simple tracking is of limited utility.
Two things
1) In 1991, all F117 sorties were supported by heavy standoff ECM support from USAF and USN sources. Such support would not necessarily be present in the deep penetration strike missions that the Nighthawk and FB-22 might be asked to take versus China or Russia.

2) Even if they cannot shoot it down, tracking reduces the stealth aircraft's uses against time sensitive targets, as those can be warned off. Mobile launchers for instance.
 
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