If the Ottomans fell during the era of Colonization...

Zioneer

Banned
Would we see more Muslims in the Americas if the Ottomans fell some time around the mid-to-late era of colonization (1600s-1800s)?
 
Good question, even if not a new one. I wonder how to make US be as receptive towards muslims immigrants as it was to Catholics though.... Earlier demise of Barbary Piracy ?
 
Good question, even if not a new one. I wonder how to make US be as receptive towards muslims immigrants as it was to Catholics though.... Earlier demise of Barbary Piracy ?

There was I believe a POD that had loads of Ottoman Muslims head in droves to the United States and set up shop there. It was pretty interesting to say the least.
 
Define "fell". Successful independence movements by Egypt and Arabia? Russia achieves its dream of retaking Constantinople? Suleiman dies in 1519, resulting in a war of succession?

If the goal is more Islamic Americans, I'd try fiddling with the Barbary pirates somehow. Successful negotiation (and/or regime change) leads to a Morocco that's genuinely friendly to the USA during the late 1810s/early 1820s? You can also cheat by letting a relatively small number of immigrants successfully convert a large number of Americans (the success of both the Theosophists and the LDS shows Americans were receptive to new religious ideas during the 1840s. And Islam learned form Moroccan immigrants may resonate well with African-Americans at the time).
 
Define "fell". Successful independence movements by Egypt and Arabia? Russia achieves its dream of retaking Constantinople? Suleiman dies in 1519, resulting in a war of succession?

If the goal is more Islamic Americans, I'd try fiddling with the Barbary pirates somehow. Successful negotiation (and/or regime change) leads to a Morocco that's genuinely friendly to the USA during the late 1810s/early 1820s? You can also cheat by letting a relatively small number of immigrants successfully convert a large number of Americans (the success of both the Theosophists and the LDS shows Americans were receptive to new religious ideas during the 1840s. And Islam learned form Moroccan immigrants may resonate well with African-Americans at the time).

Indeed it seems that the most significant obstacle for us here is the Barbary Piracy. The early Americans certainly inherited their antipathy from their english ancestors, but the main reason to keep on hating muslims was probably Barbary Piracy. Certainly that one of the US founding fathers said that the US should be a land for Christians, Jews, and Turks (muslims), to be able to live together. Annihilating/Reducing the Barbary Piracy, at least against the Americans will be the key to open the US more towards muslim immigrants. Wonder how to make Morocco goes to war against Algerians in which the Americans will back the former.....
 

Valdemar II

Banned
I don't think so, but it depend on when it collapse, a Russian-Austrian conquest of Anatolia and Balkan in the 19th century, I would say yes we would see a greater Muslim/Turkish emigration to America, through I think we will see more go to Latin America than USA, because of climate and culture. But if it collapse in the 18th Century with a Austrian conquest of the Balkans and a chaos of succesor states in the Middle East I would say no. For the 17th century I have a hard time to see a realistic POD for a collapse, but here I will still say no.
 
I don't think so, but it depend on when it collapse, a Russian-Austrian conquest of Anatolia and Balkan in the 19th century, I would say yes we would see a greater Muslim/Turkish emigration to America, through I think we will see more go to Latin America than USA, because of climate and culture. But if it collapse in the 18th Century with a Austrian conquest of the Balkans and a chaos of succesor states in the Middle East I would say no. For the 17th century I have a hard time to see a realistic POD for a collapse, but here I will still say no.

Eventhough there will be climate and cultural reasons, I doubt that Latin America can even be as receptive towards muslim immigrants as the States. Correct me if I'm wrong though.....

As for the rest, I agree.
 
Given the US's hostility toward the Catholics and Chinese in the 1800s by what stretch of your imagination do you think Muslim will be better accepted?:confused:
 
Eventhough there will be climate and cultural reasons, I doubt that Latin America can even be as receptive towards muslim immigrants as the States. Correct me if I'm wrong though.....

As for the rest, I agree.
L.A. might be even less receptive given the fact that the Spanish only kicked the last Muslims out of Spain about 1492. Although Brazil might not be as hostile.
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
Given the US's hostility toward the Catholics and Chinese in the 1800s by what stretch of your imagination do you think Muslim will be better accepted?:confused:
Historically "Syrians" (including Lebanese and Palestinians) came to America in fairly large numbers around the same time as the Chinese, and they weren't greeted with nearly the same degree of antipathy. I guess it's a matter of being at the right place at the right time.
 
Would we see more Muslims in the Americas if the Ottomans fell some time around the mid-to-late era of colonization (1600s-1800s)?

No. Muslims weren't very welcome. Muslim Ottomans that went to the Americas historically generally pretended to be Christian, worked for a while, then went home.
 
I'm not sure about the effects of an earlier Ottoman collapse, but could a POD for the collapse itself be a power wanting an earlier conquest of Egypt? For instance, if one of Europe's numerous expanding powers (or one that desperately wanted a faster way to India) took on the Ottomans at Egypt and then found themselves crawling up the coast towards Anatolia (like Napolean almost).
 

maverick

Banned
No. Muslims weren't very welcome. Muslim Ottomans that went to the Americas historically generally pretended to be Christian, worked for a while, then went home.

Ottoman Muslims went t the Americas?

When and where specifically? Most likely somewhere in the Spanish Caribbean, I assume.
 
Ottoman Muslims went t the Americas?

When and where specifically? Most likely somewhere in the Spanish Caribbean, I assume.
The first big wave of Arab (tho' not necessarily Muslim) immigration to the US occurred between 1880 and 1920--many present Arab-American communities can date their foundations to this period.
 
No. Muslims weren't very welcome. Muslim Ottomans that went to the Americas historically generally pretended to be Christian, worked for a while, then went home.

By Ottoman collapse alone, certainly wouldn't. But was anti-Islamic sentiment insurmountable ? My impression has been always that getting rid of Barbary Piracy as soon as possible would be the key.....
 
By Ottoman collapse alone, certainly wouldn't. But was anti-Islamic sentiment insurmountable ? My impression has been always that getting rid of Barbary Piracy as soon as possible would be the key.....

I thought they did? I can't see how it could have been done any sooner since there wasn't enough of a fleet for it, nor an international will. Or do you mean to find some lasting POLITICAL agreement, but how do you make it lasting?

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
I thought they did? I can't see how it could have been done any sooner since there wasn't enough of a fleet for it, nor an international will. Or do you mean to find some lasting POLITICAL agreement, but how do you make it lasting?

That can do too. As its doability, I am just as clueless as you, if not more.... :eek:
 
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