If the Germans were aware of the T-34 and KV-1

Prior to the invasion of the Soviet Union during World War II, the German armed forces were not aware of two newly developed Soviet tanks, the T-34 and the KV-1. As a result, they were surprised when they met them in combat for the first time in June 1941. The Germans' standard anti-tank weapons were found to be ineffective against these new Soviet vehicles.

If the Abwher managed to steal a blueprint of the two in,lets say,1940,this could change anything?
 

Deleted member 1487

Maybe the Germans start a Panther type design sooner, but really the only big thing they can do in the meantime is rush the PAK40 and perhaps a Marder II or III and release the use of HEAT ammo, which wasn't done until 1942 IIRC. Maybe convert the captured French 75s sooner too. Perhaps we could see the Stielgranate 41 showing up too.
 
Worst thing for the USSR and the US/UK would be that by 1942 they could have designed and started building a sloped armour VK-45 (Tiger) with the 88mm and a sloped armour VK-36 with a 75mm gun (sort-of Panther but one year early). In the meantime in 1941 they'd probably go only as far as Wiking suggests, possibly upgrade the Pz-IV and StuG-III with a long 75mm gun as well. Some kind of STuG with the 88 is also possible.
 

Deleted member 94680

I think with the, shall we say 'hierarchical', restrictions on Wehrmacht design and production the best the Germans can hope for is better anti-tank guns and improved main guns on their Panzer IIIs and IVs.
 

Deleted member 1487

Worst thing for the USSR and the US/UK would be that by 1942 they could have designed and started building a sloped armour VK-45 (Tiger) with the 88mm and a sloped armour VK-36 with a 75mm gun (sort-of Panther but one year early). In the meantime in 1941 they'd probably go only as far as Wiking suggests, possibly upgrade the Pz-IV and StuG-III with a long 75mm gun as well. Some kind of STuG with the 88 is also possible.
Yeah they might even put the L41 75 into production.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pz.Sfl._II#Design

I think they tried the 88 in the Stug and it didn't work. http://ftr-wot.blogspot.com/2013/05/misfit-tank-destoyers-sturmgeschutz-iii.html

I'd be curious what a Dicker Max with 88mm L56 would be like.
 
Pz-38(t) is realized as obsolete, so the chassis is best used to carry a 7.5 cm in on flavor on another, or 10,5cm howitzer, or 15cm infnatry gun, or 2x2 cm Flak, or 1x3 cm Flak. Simira for Pz-II, but the capability of that chassis is much lower than of the Pz-38(t).
In case the 7,5cmL70 eneters the production as per OTL, or even on greater scale, make the JgdPz-IV/70 ASAP, don't wait until 1944. A similar thing, but with Tiger's gun might've been pursued, too.
 
When the Soviets visited German tank factories in the late 30's they complained that Hitler had promised them they would be shown everything, and they felt they weren't. What if some bureaucrat realized that the Soviets themselves had something better than the Panzer III and IV in the works?

Would the Skoda T-25 have been practical? Personally I think that design tried to do too much and would have had as much teething trouble as the Panther.

wiking, Stenz and tomo pauk all have the right ideas. The Panzer III needs the long 50mm L/60 gun with tungsten ammo, despite Hitler's order to conserve tungsten for machine tools. The Panzer IV and StuG III need to get the 75mm L/43 now. All light tanks (35(t), 38(t), Panzer II etc) are obsolete and need to be converted into SPAT, SPH or SPAA. HEAT rounds need to be issued to vehicles like the Panzer IV E and F1. Vehicles like the Nashorn need to get into production as well.

Let's face it, this is a TALL order and is going to take time...
 

Deleted member 1487

I see what you mean now about a StuG with a 88, i was actually thinking of something like the Nashorn, which of course is not a StuG.
Right, the Dicker Max with 88mm L56 instead of 105mm L52. I think I asked if someone in the Alternative Vehicles thread could photoshop one once, but can't seem to find it. Here was the OTL DM:
35bfk7o.jpg


Put a FLAK 18 88mm on it instead:
toy-scl2-13199.jpg


Pz-38(t) is realized as obsolete, so the chassis is best used to carry a 7.5 cm in on flavor on another, or 10,5cm howitzer, or 15cm infnatry gun, or 2x2 cm Flak, or 1x3 cm Flak. Simira for Pz-II, but the capability of that chassis is much lower than of the Pz-38(t).
In case the 7,5cmL70 eneters the production as per OTL, or even on greater scale, make the JgdPz-IV/70 ASAP, don't wait until 1944. A similar thing, but with Tiger's gun might've been pursued, too.
How do you figure? In 1941 the 38t was fine against the vast majority of Soviet armor that was generally light. By 1942 though the T-34 was the bulk of Soviet armor so then yes. But also the 38t was really no more capable than the Pz II in terms of weapons carriage, it's just IOTL they opted to use the Pz II for the Wespe and light tank designs and the 38t for everything else.

When the Soviets visited German tank factories in the late 30's they complained that Hitler had promised them they would be shown everything, and they felt they weren't. What if some bureaucrat realized that the Soviets themselves had something better than the Panzer III and IV in the works?

Would the Skoda T-25 have been practical? Personally I think that design tried to do too much and would have had as much teething trouble as the Panther.

wiking, Stenz and tomo pauk all have the right ideas. The Panzer III needs the long 50mm L/60 gun with tungsten ammo, despite Hitler's order to conserve tungsten for machine tools. The Panzer IV and StuG III need to get the 75mm L/43 now. All light tanks (35(t), 38(t), Panzer II etc) are obsolete and need to be converted into SPAT, SPH or SPAA. HEAT rounds need to be issued to vehicles like the Panzer IV E and F1. Vehicles like the Nashorn need to get into production as well.

Let's face it, this is a TALL order and is going to take time...
http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Tank:Cz08_T_25
The T-25 wasn't developed until 1942 on German army orders apparently.
The T-24 was the response to the T-34:
http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Tank:Cz09_T_24
Neither look promising compared to a Pz IV with 75mm L41 gun.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
You guys know a lot better about these things, but as a small footnote to the bigger picture, possibly small allies of Germany like Romania would also try to do something earlier, so maybe some romanian TACAM R-2 and T-60 conversions might actually be available in 1942. Hmm... i'm now thinking of the Maresal, but probably won't appear in combat before 1943. The hungarians could do something as well, they could put a 75mm gun on one of their chassis, the Turan maybe. Oh and also maybe the italians too, they could probably create several tank destroyer types.

But all in all, possibly 1941 could be worse, and 1942 much worse as far as armour warfare is concerned for USSR primarily (and US/UK in Africa etc). But of course, obviously the soviets will try to adapt against the enhanced german armour threat, their survival would be at stake.
 
the panzerfaust was already mentioned, it probably will appear in a bigger calibre than it did otl
 
7.5 cm Pak 40 would get high priority and could be seen sooner. Even KwK 40 would be seen sooner. This could make some difference and would be cheapest and faster option. Pz IV with KwK 40, maybe even earlier Marder III destroyers. If it was much faster and started to gain numbers before Barbarossa, I guess Germans could even start updating Pz 35s to tank destroyers similar way Romanians did OTL later in the war.
 

Deleted member 1487

7.5 cm Pak 40 would get high priority and could be seen sooner. Even KwK 40 would be seen sooner. This could make some difference and would be cheapest and faster option. Pz IV with KwK 40, maybe even earlier Marder III destroyers. If it was much faster and started to gain numbers before Barbarossa, I guess Germans could even start updating Pz 35s to tank destroyers similar way Romanians did OTL later in the war.
Any idea of how much sooner the PAK40 could have been produced? The Germans did already have a L41 75mm ready to go in Spring 1941, so if they wanted they could have produced it.
 
How do you figure? In 1941 the 38t was fine against the vast majority of Soviet armor that was generally light. By 1942 though the T-34 was the bulk of Soviet armor so then yes. But also the 38t was really no more capable than the Pz II in terms of weapons carriage, it's just IOTL they opted to use the Pz II for the Wespe and light tank designs and the 38t for everything else.

Premise of the thread is that Germans are aware of well-armored and armed Soviet tanks, T-34 and KV-1.
Hence Pz-38(t) is judged as obsolete; same for Pz-II, that in OTL sported much weaker firepower, armor and crew (3 vs. 4) on 90% the weight of the Pz-38(t).
 
Any idea of how much sooner the PAK40 could have been produced? The Germans did already have a L41 75mm ready to go in Spring 1941, so if they wanted they could have produced it.
They started development sometimes in 1939 and early 1942 they had just few dozens. But they went really easy with development and pushing it into production.
Accordign to Schiffer Military History - German Anti-tank Guns, Germans High Command in its order from April 21st 1941 that 75 mm Pak is in production but according to publication gun didn't exist yet. First pieces were manufactured in Novenber 1941. Serial production in full speed started only in February 1942. It got baptism of fire in May 1942 under Kharkov. Average monthly production was 175 in 1942, 730 in 1943.
I guess if they went full speed with development they could start serial production sometimes in spring, early summer 1941.
 

Deleted member 1487

Premise of the thread is that Germans are aware of well-armored and armed Soviet tanks, T-34 and KV-1.
Hence Pz-38(t) is judged as obsolete; same for Pz-II, that in OTL sported much weaker firepower, armor and crew (3 vs. 4) on 90% the weight of the Pz-38(t).
Being aware of their existence doesn't mean that the Pz38t would be taken out of production as a result. It was obsolete already in the French campaign, but was good enough for the majority of Soviet AFVs in 1941. The Germans kept trying to make upgraded versions of the Pz II for a while and even tried to do a VK1601 Leopard upgrade, but was judged to be wildly inadequate. The Soviets soldiered on and made their version of that weight class the T-70, before realizing it was a waste. The US went even further and kept the M24 Chaffee long after everyone else realized it was a total waste (they later persisted with the M41 Walker Bulldog post-war). It took a lot more than encountering the T-34 and upgraded tanks to finally get them out of production.

They started development sometimes in 1939 and early 1942 they had just few dozens. But they went really easy with development and pushing it into production.
Accordign to Schiffer Military History - German Anti-tank Guns, Germans High Command in its order from April 21st 1941 that 75 mm Pak is in production but according to publication gun didn't exist yet. First pieces were manufactured in Novenber 1941. Serial production in full speed started only in February 1942. It got baptism of fire in May 1942 under Kharkov. Average monthly production was 175 in 1942, 730 in 1943.
I guess if they went full speed with development they could start serial production sometimes in spring, early summer 1941.
If they had them on hand in June 1941 they'd do some damage then, especially if in a Marder configuration. The question is how long it takes to get the KWK40 into service.
 
The US went even further and kept the M24 Chaffee long after everyone else realized it was a total waste (they later persisted with the M41 Walker Bulldog post-war). It took a lot more than encountering the T-34 and upgraded tanks to finally get them out of production

But as far as light tanks go, was an excellent design for 20 ton tank.

Fast, 35mph, with a good ride and reliable, hull was well shaped, and the 75mm was an excellent gun against infantry and other light armor.

Downside was this should have been done sooner, in place of the M7 'Light' tank, and the T45 HVAP ammo for the 75mm should have been put into production.

Light tanks continued to be made thru the Cold War, other than the amphibious bit, is superior to the PT-76, that was equipped with with a gun little better than the old ZiS-3 76mm field gun.
It however, got a HVAP round.
 
Being aware of their existence doesn't mean that the Pz38t would be taken out of production as a result.

That is your opinion.
My opinoin: the Pz-38(t) need to be taken out of production, it's hull converted into something toting either a much bigger gun, or the SP Flak.

It was obsolete already in the French campaign, but was good enough for the majority of Soviet AFVs in 1941. The Germans kept trying to make upgraded versions of the Pz II for a while and even tried to do a VK1601 Leopard upgrade, but was judged to be wildly inadequate. The Soviets soldiered on and made their version of that weight class the T-70, before realizing it was a waste. The US went even further and kept the M24 Chaffee long after everyone else realized it was a total waste (they later persisted with the M41 Walker Bulldog post-war). It took a lot more than encountering the T-34 and upgraded tanks to finally get them out of production.

There we go. In a contested ww2 battlefield, against a more numerous foe, the thinly-armored and weakly armed tanks are waste, niches like 'swimming' or 'paratrooper' tanks aside.
 

Deleted member 94680

But isn't the Pz-38(t) indicative of the larger issues with early-War German tank production? They were brought into service by the Germans because they couldn't produce enough of their existing tank types, let alone a new (effectively) experimental type.

Hence, a better gun to go on the existing platforms informed by this ATL intelligence (I'm assuming this will involve several German mock-up T-34s for testing?).
 
Top