If the Germans adopt the P.108 Long-Range Bomber...

I'm trying to stick within the OP. Clearly the He177B designed that way from the beginning is the superior choice.

Agreed. So what we're looking for is a version of the Piaggio with a B-17E tail instead of the original, and German engines. Considering how long it took the Germans to adopt Italian torpedoes, it's going to be a while before the P.108C Fortezza Volante is developed.
 
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Deleted member 1487

Agreed. So what we're looking for is a version of the Piaggio with a B-17E tail instead of the original, and German engines. Considering how long it took the Germans to adopt Italian torpedoes, it's going to be a while before the P.108C Fortezza Volante is developed.
Yeah, I know there was push back before about the He177B in a thread on did on it, as fuel will still be an issue, but it is pretty much the equivalent technically of the Lancaster. I really do think that had significant potential in the East against the Soviets, what do you think?
 
Yeah, I know there was push back before about the He177B in a thread on did on it, as fuel will still be an issue, but it is pretty much the equivalent technically of the Lancaster. I really do think that had significant potential in the East against the Soviets, what do you think?

I don't know what the Soviets would say about it, but the He-177B was the way to go. There is the question of why it wasn't done. There's always lots of questions with too many different answers all purporting to be the facts. I've just recently come across a book about Ohain, and he and Heinkel don't agree on the first running date of the hydrogen engine. When people who were there don't know, who knows?

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Deleted member 1487

I don't know what the Soviets would say about it, but the He-177B was the way to go. There is the question of why it wasn't done. There's always lots of questions with too many different answers all purporting to be the facts. I've just recently come across a book about Ohain, and he and Heinkel don't agree on the first running date of the hydrogen engine. When people who were there don't know, who knows?
We know why the He177B wasn't ordered until 1943: the coupled engine arrangement was thought to be better in terms of less drag, showed no problems in testing, and when Udet ordered the dive bombing changes all the engineering work was put into making that work and sorting out the aerodynamic issues of the design until 1942. Politically Udet was keeping the A-series as the one during his tenure and with his suicide in 1941 Milch was left trying to sort the issues out amidst the wreckage Udet left in terms of vast disorganization of the aviation industry. The guy in charge of the He177 project initially had moved on leaving a mess in the wake of his departure and later got brought back to sort it out. Eventually it was, but the huge problems Goering left in the Luftwaffe by putting Udet in charge and having to sort of the usual Nazi disorder meant the project just wasn't organized properly.

The PoD you need is Wever living and professionals maintaining the 1936 well oiled machine of development and you get it in production in 1941, probably in the B-series arrangement. There is no way in hell that Wever, Wimmer, and Richthofen with Milch running production would have ever allowed that crap to start let alone continue for years. Goering vomited all over the organization and map it his political playground for years until he was finally pushed out of decision making in 1942. I was just reading how he had a meeting with Heinkel in Austria about the He177 project and missed the meeting so he could go jewelry shopping in Vienna.
 
Goring was without a doubt the most incompetent person to put in charge of the Luftwaffe. He even had a poor track record in the First World Ward doing anything other than flying a plane. Gosh no other country demanded that its bombers be able to operate as Dive Bombers. Its one of the factors that Screwed up the He177
 
was there any capacity for Piaggio to manufacture the P.108?

the Germans made use of the SM.82 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savoia-Marchetti_SM.82 but those were produced in fairly large numbers

In one day, the USAAF lost 60 Fortresses, even though they had tail guns. In one day, one factory produced 16 Fortresses. It took 3 days for one Boeing factory to out-produce the war's P.108 bomber production.

that was to my point, but did Piaggio even have capacity to build large numbers IF orders had been made?

the SM.82 actually had a larger bomb load and comparable range to P.108, although it was too slow. but the factory was well situated in northern Italy and produced 300 in 1944.

(and Germany actually ordered SM.82s)

possible to solve performance with BMW engines, either Bramo 323 or BMW 801? or both in different variants.
 
possible to solve performance with BMW engines, either Bramo 323 or BMW 801? or both in different variants.

The Bramo engine won't solve any problems. The BMW801C, compared to the Piaggio, is slightly smaller,smaller diameter, slightly more powerful, heavier, and with a higher fuel burn at same critical altitude which is too low. It is more reliable. Other 801 variants are more powerful still, yet heavier with higher fuel burn. 28,000 engines were made. Could they make 32,000? Plus spares? And when?

I always thought it amusing that the Beaufighter II was powered with Merlin engines in case of a Hercules shortage, and it was crap. The Lancaster B.II was the reverse, Merlin to Hercules, and it was crap. The Halifax got better. Go figure.
 
that was to my point, but did Piaggio even have capacity to build large numbers IF orders had been made?

the SM.82 actually had a larger bomb load and comparable range to P.108, although it was too slow.

possible to solve performance with BMW engines, either Bramo 323 or BMW 801? or both in different variants.

The Bramo engine won't solve any problems. The BMW801C, compared to the Piaggio, is slightly smaller,smaller diameter, slightly more powerful, heavier, and with a higher fuel burn at same critical altitude which is too low. It is more reliable. Other 801 variants are more powerful still, yet heavier with higher fuel burn. 28,000 engines were made. Could they make 32,000? Plus spares? And when?

sorry if my post was muddled, was referring to SM.82 which used Alfa Romeo prod. 950 hp, so the Bramo 323 used for Condor or the 801 would offer an increase in performance.
 
sorry if my post was muddled, was referring to SM.82 which used Alfa Romeo prod. 950 hp, so the Bramo 323 used for Condor or the 801 would offer an increase in performance.

For service in Russia, it would need more power and an enclosed ventral gondola rather than the retractable ventral dustbin which is the bomb-aimer/ventral gun position. However, more weight would be problematic since most of its epic missions were already performed in overload condition.
 

Deleted member 1487

For service in Russia, it would need more power and an enclosed ventral gondola rather than the retractable ventral dustbin which is the bomb-aimer/ventral gun position. However, more weight would be problematic since most of its epic missions were already performed in overload condition.
In which case going for the DB605 or 603 or Jumo 213 was about as good as you were going to get with Axis engines.
 
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