If the Baltimore Ravens had never moved, would they still be as successful?

Just wondering because I think it would be fun to make an ATL where the Browns never become the Baltimore Ravens. My main question would be though, does anyone think the Ravens would be as successful of a team if they had stayed in Cleveland. The Browns were a pretty good franchise, but they fell on hard times in the 90's. Of course it would be dumb to assume the ATL Browns would draft the same players the RAvens would, but I would think they'd still take Ray Lewis in 1996.

Also, expansion and relocation would be impacted. Baltimore would get a team eventually, and maybe the Houston Oilers might have had enough clout to stay in Houston, meaning LA would get a team.

Anyway what are your'e thoughts. Would the Ravens still be as good a franchise if they'd stayed in Cleveland?
 
I think that, aside from the butterflies around the fact that new owners (that did/would move a team) will have a different outlook on what should be done and how, moving a franchise makes no real difference. Barring some fatal financial mistake, eventually someone is going to hire, fire, trade and/or sign the right people to fix what the problem is on the playing field. Finding who that someone is, is unrelated to geography.
 
The year the Browns moved, as in before all the crap started, they were heavily favored to win their division and had serious chances of making the Super Bowl. Keep the Browns where they belonged, and you may just have an earlier Super Bowl win.
 
Would not moving affect who the player personnel decision makers were? Probably not initially, so Art Modell, Ozzie Newsome, and Scott Pioli (Pro Personnel Coordinator) are still together. They put together a pretty fine record of drafting players, so likely the Browns would do well in the draft to develop the team.

Next question, does Bill Belichick get fired at the end of the 95 season? In his 5 years as head coach, he has gone 6-10, 7-9, 7-9, 11-5, and 5-11. He is likely gone. But if he stays, can he become the coach he's been with OTL Patriots?

And Belichick's replacement was the very unexciting Ted Marchibroda.

Without announcing a move to Baltimore part way through the 95 season, do the Browns still collapse? IOTL, they only had 1 win in their last 8 games. If they win even one more game, does their great 1996 draft happen. IOTL they took Outland Trophy winner (and now HOF) left tackle Jonathan Ogden with the 4th over all pick and then took future HOFer Ray Lewis with the 26th pick. The absence of either of these two all time great players from the roster would have huge negative long term repercussions. Its possible both players get butterflied off the team with a better record.

If the Brown's don't move, how does owner Art Modell address his desperate financial situation caused by his non-football businesses? The Baltimore deal gave him a cash influx to survive short term, and then in Maryland's Steve Biscotti he found someone willing to put up $280 million for 49% ownership and also willing to wait 5 years before kicking in another $300 to buy another 49% in the team. Without the influx of cash from moving, Modell won't have the money to pay for significant free agents or retain his best players. And if Modell is forced to sell, odds are pretty good that any new owner will shake up the front office some, disrupting the pretty good talent identifiers Modell got into place. (Newsome probably stays in some role as he is a HOF Cleveland Brown favorite son, so too huge of a PR hit for a new owner to get rid of.)


All in all, it looks to me like they would NOT be as successful. Successful? Probably, so long as they got to hold on to Ozzie Newsome as General Manager/VP Operations.
 
And Belichick's replacement was the very unexciting Ted Marchibroda.

One definite butterfly of not moving, is no Marchibroda, he was brought in 96 (1st season in Baltimore) in part (likely a large part) because of his popularity in Baltimore, as the Colts last winning coach.
 
Thanks for the ideas folks. I have spent most of the day thinking about this, and looking at how this could work. I had to do a little research, but I'm thinking of starting it with this POD

1990. ESPN News Update. After a ballot issue created a sin tax in Cuyahoga County, and provided enough revenue to help the owners of the Cleveland Indians and the Cavaliers get new homes, the Browns have become a part of the Gateway project and hope to get a new stadium at some point in the future.

When asked about the project, Browns owner Art Modell stated that "it's important that the Browns have a new stadium. Municipal Stadium is a landmark, but the city needs a new home for the Browns, and I know the fans will appreciate it". While fans are excited that the Browns may finally get a new Stadium, some are suspicious of Art Modell. Many fans feel this was a PR move since many in Cleveland do not like Modell for a number of reasons, most notably among older fans, the firing of its first head coach, Paul Brown. Many fans though are just happy that the Browns stadium situation is improving.



1994- ESPN First new game at Cleveland Browns Stadium

Sept 11th 1994. The Cleveland Browns opened their new stadium in the Gateway Sports Complex against their longtime rival, the Pittsburgh Steelers. The Browns won 17-10 at home, making it one exciting day for Browns fans. Cleveland mayor Michael R. White, Art Modell, and Al Lerner dedicated the new stadium before the game, and a number of local celebrities, including actor Drew Carey showed up to give their support to the Browns.

Sound Byte: Art Modell: "I'm so happy that the City of Cleveland has given this organization such support. Without you, this team would be nowhere. Ever since I became a part of this organization in 1961, I've always loved how Cleveland supports the Browns. Thank You.

January 1995. Browns make NFL playoffs, get first seed
ESPN- After struggling for the past few seasons, Bill Belichick and the Browns have made the playoffs with an 13-3 record with Bill Belichick winning coach of the year honors for turning around the Browns. The team had an undefeated record at home and only lost to Denver, Kansas City, and Pittsburgh, all on the road. The Browns will play either the

Standings

AFC East
Dolphins 10-6(3
Patriots 10-6 (5
Colts 8-8
Bills 7-9
Jets 6-10

Central
Browns 13-3 (1
Steelers 11-5(4
Bengals 3-13
Oilers 2-14

West
Chargers 11-5(2
Chiefs 9-7(6)
Raiders 9-7
Broncos 7-9
Seahawks 6-10

NFC

East
Cowboys 12-4 (2
Giants 9-7
Cardinals 8-8
Eagles 7-9
Redskins 3-13

Central
Vikings 10-6 (3
Packers 9-7 (4
Lions 9-7 (5
Bears 9-7(6
Bucanneers 6-10

West
49ers 13-3 (1
Saints 7-9
Falcons7-9
Rams 4-12

Playoffs
AFC: Dolphins beat Chiefs 27-17, Pittsburgh beats New England 28-14
NFC Packers beat Lions 16-12, Chicago beats Minnesota 35-18

2nd Round
Browns beat Chiefs 24-17
San Diego beats Pittsburgh 31-28
SF beats Chicago 44-15
Dallas beats Green Bay 35 9

Championship
Cleveland beats San Diego 21-17
SF beats Dallas 38-28.

ESPN- Cleveland wins first AFC title ever, hopes to win league for first time since 1964.

Today, the Cleveland Browns beat the San Diego Chargers 21-17, overcoming years of heartbreak in AFC title games. QB Vinny Testaverde played a good game, but it was the Browns defense who made key plays against San Diego, keeping them from coming back in the 4th quarter. It is the first AFC title for Browns fans, as well as their first Super Bowl appearance. Because of this, fans stormed the field after the win, even trying to tear down the goalposts after the game, though security kept fans from taking the goalposts. The Browns will play the San Francisco 49ers in Super Bowl XXIX in Miami

Super Bowl.

49ers dominate Browns to win 5th title.

ESPN- It looks as if Cleveland will be without another title, at least for one more year. The Browns lost to the San Francisco 49ers 42-24 at Joe Robbie Stadium in Miami. Steve YOung threw for 5 touchdown passes and was the games MVP. For San Francisco, this was their 5th Super Bowl title, the most by any team in NFL history. As for the Browns, their first trip to the Super Bowl was one that they might want to forget. While Vinny Testaverde threw for 2 touch downs he also had two picks and Cleveland couldn't keep up with the 49er's scoring power. It was a hard ending for the Browns, who won their first AFC championship, and also opened their new stadium this past season. While many Cleveland fans were disappointed in the result, many will never forget their first Super Bowl trip.

I know i need to work out a lot of things, but its a start.
 
Getting a new stadium for the Browns would 100 percent be the POD for keeping an Art Modell owned Browns in Cleveland.

What are the PODs for taking an OTL 11 and 5 team in 1994 that lost in the 2nd round of the playoffs to ITTL a Browns team winning 13 games and losing the Super Bowl?

The OTL 1994 Browns scored the 11th (out of 28 teams) most points that year and the outstanding defense gave up the fewest points in the entire league.

Are there no player personnel changes from OTL? Or do the players just play better or get luckier? Their losses were by 7 to Pittsburgh, by 12 to Denver, by 7 to Kansas City, by 3 to the Giants, and by 10 to the Steelers again. Granted QB Testaverde got injured during the loss to Denver (where he looked pretty ineffective), and was replaced by Mark Rypien who started the next 3 games, which included the loss to the Giants.

OTL Testaverde had a very league average sort of 1994 season. 207 completions in 376 attempts (55% completion average) for 2575 yards with 16 touchdowns and 18 interceptions. More interceptions than touchdowns is never good. The quality of the skill positions on offense was also very league average. Hoard, Metcalf, and an old Ernest Byner at running back. Derrick Alexander, Mark Carrier, and Michael Jackson at wide receiver. (Ironically they also had an under utilized Keenan McCardell at wideout who went on to have 6 excellent seasons with Jacksonville 1996 to 2001.)

IMHO, for the Browns to do better ITTL, Testaverde has to stay healthy and play better; and, they need a better primary back than Leroy Hoard. Maybe they could have gotten Bam Morris (horrible person, decent runner) in the 3rd round of the 94 draft instead of DT Romeo Bandison. As a rookie in 94 he rushed for 836 yards on only 198 carries for 4.2 yards per carry, with 7 touchdowns. He would add to the Browns backfield and take away from the rival Steelers.
 
Getting a new stadium for the Browns would 100 percent be the POD for keeping an Art Modell owned Browns in Cleveland.

What are the PODs for taking an OTL 11 and 5 team in 1994 that lost in the 2nd round of the playoffs to ITTL a Browns team winning 13 games and losing the Super Bowl?

The OTL 1994 Browns scored the 11th (out of 28 teams) most points that year and the outstanding defense gave up the fewest points in the entire league.

Are there no player personnel changes from OTL? Or do the players just play better or get luckier? Their losses were by 7 to Pittsburgh, by 12 to Denver, by 7 to Kansas City, by 3 to the Giants, and by 10 to the Steelers again. Granted QB Testaverde got injured during the loss to Denver (where he looked pretty ineffective), and was replaced by Mark Rypien who started the next 3 games, which included the loss to the Giants.

OTL Testaverde had a very league average sort of 1994 season. 207 completions in 376 attempts (55% completion average) for 2575 yards with 16 touchdowns and 18 interceptions. More interceptions than touchdowns is never good. The quality of the skill positions on offense was also very league average. Hoard, Metcalf, and an old Ernest Byner at running back. Derrick Alexander, Mark Carrier, and Michael Jackson at wide receiver. (Ironically they also had an under utilized Keenan McCardell at wideout who went on to have 6 excellent seasons with Jacksonville 1996 to 2001.)

IMHO, for the Browns to do better ITTL, Testaverde has to stay healthy and play better; and, they need a better primary back than Leroy Hoard. Maybe they could have gotten Bam Morris (horrible person, decent runner) in the 3rd round of the 94 draft instead of DT Romeo Bandison. As a rookie in 94 he rushed for 836 yards on only 198 carries for 4.2 yards per carry, with 7 touchdowns. He would add to the Browns backfield and take away from the rival Steelers.

I guess i was figuring that maybe the team would play a little better due to the fact that there would be excitement around the team doing so well. I will admit they need a better back and Testaverde could do a lot better in OTL, but in TTL I still think motivation would do a lot with it. I'll admit i'm somewhat of a browns fan so them getting luckier could be because of ASB, but hey i'm biased
 
Created new TL

I created a new TL, in it the 94 browns still go 13-3, but lose in the AFC title game to the Steelers ( Inexperience would still hamper them). In 95 though I have them going 10-6 and have them beating the Bills in the AFC title and win in an upset, but lose badly to the Cowboys in the Super Bowl. As for personnel changes Belichick stays as do his staff, and most of the players stay, granted it has serious draft implications if they have continued success.

I also wonder if Testaverde would still be let go as a free agent if he did better in Cleveland, and still think he would have been let go and ended up with the Jets, though they would have actually wanted him unlike in OTL where he was brought in as kind of a last minute replacement. I'm also still trying to figure out if Testaverde leaves if Belichick still has a job past 98. The Browns might have collapsed then, but who knows. I don't necessarily mind Belichick building their dynasty, but if he gets fired maybe Brian Billick takes over much like he did with the Ravens in OTL.
 
Top