If taiwan became muslim
- Thread starter kasumigenx
- Start date
And also the native population will be less isolated and get more mainland genes and get male-pattern baldness.
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Aozhouhuaren
Banned
You must have misread my statement, no where in my post did I mention the Han Chinese of Taiwan being islamicised/islamised.
I was suggesting whether it would be likely for Zheng He and any other prominent Hui Muslims to establish settlements in Taiwan (not only to escape Han discrimination but also to conduct profitable trade). That way, Islam might slowly spread out to the Aborigines from those settlements.
As for the effect, one has to ask how compatible are the Aboriginal religions with Islam. If the Aboriginals find the faith similar and are well convinced of Islamic concepts, they might willingly convert. However if the Muslims find the Aboriginals uncivilised and pagan, then I can only see bad times for the Aboriginals.
Abdul Hadi Pasha
Banned
That's not likely to be true. It for some reason Muslim merchants were attracted to Taiwan, they would bring a lot more there than just religion. You have examples of this is sub-Saharan Africa. They also would bring entirely new concepts of political organization and post-Stone Age technology.
In Africa this rapidly led to the formation of large and powerful polities - it could happen in Taiwan too, especially if there are a decent number of Muslim settlers.
Java, for instance, had a large Hadrami colony. It's hard to imagine anything in Taiwan attracting a lot of Arabian merchants, or any merchants at all, but stranger things have happened. I would think that China, having been aware of Taiwan for several thousand years, would have made some use of it if they could think of one.
Abdul Hadi Pasha
Banned
In OTL this was never the case. "First Contact" is always by Islamic merchants who don't give a rat's ass about the religiosity of the natives as long as their are goods to trade, or sufi dervishes who spread Islam through preaching or impressing the locals with their superior medical technology (or magic, depending on the level of worldview). Despite the harshness of Islamic doctrine vis a vis paganism, this was really only an issue at the very beginning of Islamic history when the Islamic polity itself was in constant mortal danger from its more numerous pagan neighbors. After that, Orthodox Islamic states rarely came into contact with pagan polities, and even then managed to accommodate themselves to the situation, like for instance the Mughals deciding that Hinduism was a "religion of the book".
Obviously no single answer for that.
But to put it in the most roughly, it will also depend on from where the wave of Islamization comes from, perhaps. If somehow, Fujian and Guangdong regions become somehow at least economically dominated by the Muslims (don't ask me how, but it's certainly a cool mental image
), certainly in the level that they will be able influence how the affairs with Taiwan will be going on (to avoid "non-muslims fleeing to Taiwan to avoid muslim domination" scenario), than you're gonna see Islamic Taiwan having a form of Chinese flavor in it.If you'd choose Southern wave from Luzon-scenario, then well they'll be influenced, mainly culturally by this Islamic Luzon, at least to a degree. But that will also depend on : 1) how fast the process of Islamization will be ; 2) will China going to ruin it ? Especially the later is a very important factor to be considered. Seems to me that to heavy flow of settlers from China will have a very well potentially to be harmful if happening on the same time with ongoing Islamization process, so population boom in China, especially in Fujian and Guangdong provinces, will be something rather unfavorable for your objective here. Maybe not if it'll be both this scenario and east-wave scenario from the first paragraph happening on the same time....
What will be the consequences of this Islamic taiwan ? Now that's a question. Wonder what the absence of a European Christian power in Phillipines (or Katagalugan?) will effect this country's trade relations with Ryukyu and Japan, especially with an Islamic Taiwan as a perfect transit point. I don't know if this will mean Islam will be able to reach Japan in any meaningful way, BUT for Okinawa, somehow I can be quite sure if it's just for that, and it can be a good start indeed
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If Luzon was islamized Kapampangan will be the majority not Tagalog and Ilokano,it is because many Kapampangans changed their language to either Ilokano or Tagalog..Obviously no single answer for that.
But to put it in the most roughly, it will also depend on from where the wave of Islamization comes from, perhaps. If somehow, Fujian and Guangdong regions become somehow at least economically dominated by the Muslims (don't ask me how, but it's certainly a cool mental image
If you'd choose Southern wave from Luzon-scenario, then well they'll be influenced, mainly culturally by this Islamic Luzon, at least to a degree. But that will also depend on : 1) how fast the process of Islamization will be ; 2) will China going to ruin it ? Especially the later is a very important factor to be considered. Seems to me that to heavy flow of settlers from China will have a very well potentially to be harmful if happening on the same time with ongoing Islamization process, so population boom in China, especially in Fujian and Guangdong provinces, will be something rather unfavorable for your objective here. Maybe not if it'll be both this scenario and east-wave scenario from the first paragraph happening on the same time....
What will be the consequences of this Islamic taiwan ? Now that's a question. Wonder what the absence of a European Christian power in Phillipines (or Katagalugan?) will effect this country's trade relations with Ryukyu and Japan, especially with an Islamic Taiwan as a perfect transit point. I don't know if this will mean Islam will be able to reach Japan in any meaningful way, BUT for Okinawa, somehow I can be quite sure if it's just for that, and it can be a good start indeed
I think Japan and Korea might be Islamic if Taiwan was islamized and parts of china will be islamic...
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Well, I got almost zero knowledge about Philippines afterall...
Why did they change their language ? From the context it is implied that it was related to the case of Spanish rule IOTL, no ?
As for the second part..... I don't think so. While Islamic Taiwan, with its pre-requirement being an Islamic Luzon which thus will lessen the potential for Japan isolationism in a rather decent degree, will make East China Sea traffic potentially more crowded, I doubt it will create a strong drive for Islam's advancement towards Japan. If Ryukyu will be Islamized I can see potential for further future, but then again it will depend largely on how exactly Japan will interact with muslims and the firm state of relations between Japan and muslims. There's no guarantee that Islam won't going to turn Japan into isolationism like Christianity did IOTL, albeit it has much lesser impetus for that facing the-almost surely less "aggresive" muslims. Unless if the muslims somehow got associated with China... but I'm not sure either..... But then again we haven't specified our timeframe of discussion yet. Should the PoD be after Imjin War ? Or not to long ago in Europe ?
And if we then throw effective presence of muslims in Southeast China provinces, while I can't see any PoD close enough to prevent butterflying away Imjin War or an equivalent (must be around Tang/Song dynasty, IMO), I still doubt it will make Islamic Japan. But if under this condition the contact between China and Japan somehow gut extensify enough, it'll maybe enough to make a decent community in at least Shikoku.
But now, if you want a Muslim Korea, no you wont gonna get it from a muslim Taiwan. A muslim Manchuria or maybe Shandong might do though.
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Well, for Java it's actually pretty easy to figure why the Arabs went there. It was the best transit point to go to Maluku, where the good spices resided, besides the island of Java being rich itself it provided no small variety of goods as well. Arab traders had been visiting Indonesia region since they began actively searching for spices, so Hadrami colony in Java isn't a surprise at all. Quite likely that the colony had been "formally" around since 900s. And they built a community in Ternate just 3 centuries later. Arab traders also made one in Sumatra as well.
But the most interesting fact of all, some elite rulers of Maluku had actually been using Islamic-sounding names for quite a while before they eventually started to adopt the religion itself in 15th century.
Now, for the case of Taiwan, they kinda lacked the variety of enough valuable goods. And to the northern end, Japan was rather far from a source of anything as valuable as spices. I think that, in an Islamic Taiwan scenario, instead of seeing a wave of muslim traders going to Japan, we're more likely gonna see more Japanese adventurers go south to seek fortune. I don't know where this will bring us to.....
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It is because they are the favorite of spanish to be made as mercenaries and also because they have a bad reputation as traitors that's why they changed their languageWell, I got almost zero knowledge about Philippines afterall...
Why did they change their language ? From the context it is implied that it was related to the case of Spanish rule IOTL, no ?
Luzon was one of the centers of trade before it was conquered by the spanish,it was one of Japan's friends so Japan can also be islamized as well,yes Japan can be islamized and probably korea too and taiwan is the most probable...
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AmIndHistoryAuthor
Banned
That's not exactly an accurate presentation of the tribes' cultures or history. The Atayal had (and have) farming and extensive trade amongst themselves, and were (and are) masterful craftsmen the equal of Bali's famed craftspeople.
The Han Chinese also extensively married into the lowlander tribes for more than half a millenia, but could not conquer them prior to Japan taking the island away.
http://www.sinica.edu.tw/tit/culture/0795_TribesOfTaiwan.html
I'm curious as to how the tribes would fare under a Muslim presence. Something like how Dayaks fare in Indonesia, I'd imagine. But anyone with different ideas, I'd like to hear.
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Well while I agree the Japan-muslim relations should be better compared to European Christian one, it really depends on how things will be going on in Japan itself with muslim presence. I don't deny he potential for Muslim Japan in the long term though, at least solidly by present day. But for muslim Korea you'll need a different route other than Taiwan.
Well I do aware there were head-hunting tribes in Taiwan. How close were they an analog to the Dayaks, by the way ?
Because RL experience in the 20th century shows that the Japanese aren't very receptive to adopting wholeheartedly Christianity and Islam... even today, there are very few Christians and even fewer Muslims in Japan...
AmIndHistoryAuthor
Banned
I didn't mean they were culturally similar except very broadly. I meant they would probably face an experiences similar to how largely animist Dayaks have been treated by their Muslim neighbors. Some Dayak are Muslim converts, some became Christian, some remain animist, most are a combination of the last with one of the first two.
I don't know of any Muslim attempts to exterminate Dayak animists, like some in this thread feared would happen to Atayal if Taiwan became Muslim colonized or had many Muslim missionaries. The opposite has happened in recent history, where Dayaks, fed up with the large number of outside colonists, attacked a number who had displaced them from their lands. I don't think religion played any major role in the attacks.
Abdul Hadi Pasha
Banned
Stone age cultures aren't incapable of producing great art. "Stone-age" really only applies to technology. There are no "stone-age" languages, i.e. all languages are relatively comparable in complexity and the ability to convey complicated and abstract ideas.
My point is that that Taiwan had no trade goods that would attract Arab merchants all the way from Arabia. They certainly aren't going to be buying pagan idols, no matter how beautifully crafted!
If Islam spreads to Taiwan, it will be through the agency of merchants (presuming some reason for them to be there develops), so any conversion is going to be voluntary.