If Song China industrialized would Europe have remained a backwater?

Many say Song China was on the cusp of Industrialization. What I'm wondering is if they did would medieval Europe have been left behind or would that industrialization have spread over?

When England industrialized it spread to other parts of Europe. However Song China was much more distant and insular.
 

Kaze

Banned
It would all depend on the 30'000 pound gorilla in the room - the Mongols.

If the Mongols are minimized by the industrial might - they might take their horses and the knowledge they has stolen and march their way into Europe.

In IRL - The mongols have been cited as the peoples that introduced gunpowder to the west. Where on through Arab traders, the new boom-stick weapon catches on and thus dies the flower of chivalry.

I could see the same where the same senerio where Europe would just be a little behind in industrialization - maybe by a couple decades.

If the Mongols are not get minimized - R.I.P. Song Dynasty.

Even if the Song Dynasty in some ASB universe had steam-powered ships and steam-powered tanks - sorry, the Mongols had numbers and had the ability to take POWs and say "make us one of these new weapons or we will torture you and your family to death" or "here is a mountain of gold, betray your country and it is all yours".
 
It would all depend on the 30'000 pound gorilla in the room - the Mongols.

If the Mongols are minimized by the industrial might - they might take their horses and the knowledge they has stolen and march their way into Europe.

In IRL - The mongols have been cited as the peoples that introduced gunpowder to the west. Where on through Arab traders, the new boom-stick weapon catches on and thus dies the flower of chivalry.

I could see the same where the same senerio where Europe would just be a little behind in industrialization - maybe by a couple decades.

If the Mongols are not get minimized - R.I.P. Song Dynasty.

Even if the Song Dynasty in some ASB universe had steam-powered ships and steam-powered tanks - sorry, the Mongols had numbers and had the ability to take POWs and say "make us one of these new weapons or we will torture you and your family to death" or "here is a mountain of gold, betray your country and it is all yours".

That’s not true. The Southern Song could very possibly have effectively resisted the Mongols (and they did for a while). A large part of their domestic unrest was caused by Wang Anshi-style inflationary policies, exacerbated by constant war, that alienated the gentry and even parts of the peasantry and the aggressive stance the Song took towards their neighbors (Jin and later Mongols). Even with such a handicap, it is very plausible that Song could’ve outlasted the Mongol onslaught. The mountains and rivers of the south, along with the climate, were devastating to the Mongols. Diaoyu castle and Xiangyang resisted for over a decade, with the former outlasting the Song themselves, and this without effective Song aid (which could’ve been given).

Also, the Song could most definitely outnumber and outbuy the Mongols. That wasn’t why the Mongols won. They won due to Song internal collapse and their own persistence and martial/organizational ability.

Now, to the real question: will the Europeans (or those in the Middle East or Indian subcontinent, for that matter) keep pace? It really depends. Are their governments receptive to industrialization? Are they stable enough to implement it? Can they contain their conservative elements effectively? Can they develop the collective institutions and beliefs that are required in time? Are they supported or hindered by industrialized countries? These, and more, are the questions that must be answered before one can make an educated prediction.

The problem is rarely that there is a lack of knowledge or capability (except in the cases of more isolated societies like Australia, sub-Saharan Africa, or the Americas). Often, it is that, with what seems to be good reason, the ruler, government, and aristocracy choose not to adopt new technologies, policies, or ideologies. Take the ulema’s struggle with gunpowder as an example. Or how the Ming banned sea trade and gave up on curbing piracy despite having one of the largest navies on earth and inheriting from the Song (and even the Yuan) a top-notch naval tradition. Or the Ottoman struggle with their janissaries to modernize. Sometimes it isn’t a question of whether modernization is possible but a question of whether it will actually happen.
 
Many say Song China was on the cusp of Industrialization. What I'm wondering is if they did would medieval Europe have been left behind or would that industrialization have spread over?

When England industrialized it spread to other parts of Europe. However Song China was much more distant and insular.
It depends if industrialized Song China goes colonialist or not. There’s also the question if European kingdoms decide to adopt this “alien” technology. Europe is also very religious and overpopulated at this time.

Europe will probably be a mostly developing area, with maybe some developed nations (OTL Singapore to Southeast Asia)
 
Europe's rise stemmed from increasing wealth in the Italian cities allowing for all that came afterwards. As long as the cities of Northern and Central Italy remain rich, and encouraged the studies of the humanities, then the base for Europe's rise is there. Now, it should be said that the Spanish discovery of New World Silver was massive in this period because it flooded both Europe and China with excess capital, often unrestrained in its growth in supply.

If you want to disturb Europe's rise, you need to destroy the development of large states in the 15th and 16th centuries by a reassertion of noble power against the state. But before that, you need to do something to destroy the wealth of Northern Italy. War alone did not accomplish this in time; it was full of war. You need, I think, the Mongols to hit Northern Italy. If so, and they do to it what they did to Abbasid Baghdad , then perhaps a disruption occurs.

Also, I have to say that perhaps the Black Death played a role. Hear me out:

Europe before the Black Death was essentially overpopulated and full of grinding poverty. States were becoming marginally more effective, but in general, the power of the nobility was strong, wages were infintesimal, famine routinely killed off sizable parts of the population.

After the Black Death, things were different. You had massive social mobility (just by default), rising wages because of a tight labor market, and increasingly powerful states because of the squeeze being put on the nobility. This laid the foundations for the development of a middle class and a rising bureaucracy. The lack of people meant that food became more readily available, and diets became more varied and included a lot more protein, leading to increasing rates of physical strength that increased labor productivity.
 
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