If Prittwitz had kept his subordinates on a short leash

I saw this on another forum some time ago and found the idea interesting but the discussion there did move away from the original idea and left it mostly unanswered, so I thought about putting it up here.

What if Prittwitz had kept his subordinates on a short leash and kept concentrating his forces? The battle of Stalluponen does not happen and the Russians are allowed to take Gumbinnen before meeting the German line on the Angerapp.
Once engaged Francois's I corp moves around the north of the Tzullkinner forest, attacking the flank of the Russian 1st army. The delay would also allow the 3rd reserve division, which arrived too late to fight historically, time to arrive, where, reinforced by some Landwehr units, it could attack the Russian southern flank.

This is not supposed to be a Tannenberg or Masurien lake style victory for the Germans but rather to force Rennenkampf's army to fall back a bit or retreat. Or at the very least to deal them a blow. Then the Germans focus on the Russian 2nd army like in OTL. Something like Tannenberg should still be possible. After that Prittwitz can again focus on the Russian 1st army. He would be lacking the forces to really do anything in support of Austria-Hungary so AH might stay on the defensive and not do some desasterous attacks.

So, can this actually work for the Germans or are they off worse than in OTL?
 
IOTL, already the combats at Stallupönen and Gumbinnen had sufficed to take out the fight of Rennenkampf's army. And - independently from Hindenburg and Ludendorff - the 8th Army staff had begun planning for an operation against Samsonov's army.
So, yes, if the Fat Soldier (Prittwitz' nickname) manages to control Herrmann von Francois, the 8th Army under his leadership may be able to keep the Russians withdrawing from East Prussia. Whether a complete victory à la Tannenberg is in the books is another question.
This makes Ludendorff the second man in the 2nd Army in the West - and the Battle of the Marne may end quite differently from OTL.
 
IOTL, already the combats at Stallupönen and Gumbinnen had sufficed to take out the fight of Rennenkampf's army. And - independently from Hindenburg and Ludendorff - the 8th Army staff had begun planning for an operation against Samsonov's army.
So, yes, if the Fat Soldier (Prittwitz' nickname) manages to control Herrmann von Francois, the 8th Army under his leadership may be able to keep the Russians withdrawing from East Prussia. Whether a complete victory à la Tannenberg is in the books is another question.
This makes Ludendorff the second man in the 2nd Army in the West - and the Battle of the Marne may end quite differently from OTL.

Interesting. I didn't know that Ludendorff would have been the second man in the 2nd Army. You always learn something new.
And I agree on the Tannenberg thing. The Russians would after all react to this development.
 

Anderman

Donor
This makes Ludendorff the second man in the 2nd Army in the West - and the Battle of the Marne may end quite differently from OTL.

Luddendorf was the second general staff officer the Ib a Quartiemeister. That means he is in third position after chief of staff and the CO of second army.
 

Deleted member 1487

I saw this on another forum some time ago and found the idea interesting but the discussion there did move away from the original idea and left it mostly unanswered, so I thought about putting it up here.

What if Prittwitz had kept his subordinates on a short leash and kept concentrating his forces? The battle of Stalluponen does not happen and the Russians are allowed to take Gumbinnen before meeting the German line on the Angerapp.
Once engaged Francois's I corp moves around the north of the Tzullkinner forest, attacking the flank of the Russian 1st army. The delay would also allow the 3rd reserve division, which arrived too late to fight historically, time to arrive, where, reinforced by some Landwehr units, it could attack the Russian southern flank.

This is not supposed to be a Tannenberg or Masurien lake style victory for the Germans but rather to force Rennenkampf's army to fall back a bit or retreat. Or at the very least to deal them a blow. Then the Germans focus on the Russian 2nd army like in OTL. Something like Tannenberg should still be possible. After that Prittwitz can again focus on the Russian 1st army. He would be lacking the forces to really do anything in support of Austria-Hungary so AH might stay on the defensive and not do some desasterous attacks.

So, can this actually work for the Germans or are they off worse than in OTL?

An initial success against the Russian 1st army, which was already without some of its supply staff, would have saved Prittwitz from getting fired and that would prevent Hindenburg from coming out of retirement (for the moment) and reaching renown. Tannenberg would still happen, as it was planned before Ludendorff showed up; he and Hindenburg just approved what was already in motion. This would also prevent the 2nd Masurian Lakes as we know it, which would save the 8th army some losses, as well as the Russian 1st army and leave them glaring at each other in East Prussia. The problem would be what to do about supporting the A-Hs. I think them not going on the offensive in Galicia in October would be a huge boon to both the German and A-Hs. It would help save Przemysl from using up its food supplying the A-H field armies when the liberated it the first time, so could survive longer, though the Russians might try and reduce it about the same time, which might mean they fall anyway, just a little bit later. Conrad would still throw away his army fighting in the Carpathians in 1915, but there would be less losses overall thanks to avoiding the October-November fighting trying to liberate Przemysl.
Overall I think its a gain, especially if Prittwitz doesn't try and pull that ill advised 2nd Masurian battle, which, though official casualties were low, resulted in lots of frostbite and winter related sickness for German troops.

The big change would be that the 8th army wouldn't get two extra corps in September, which could make a big difference.

As to Ludendorff, I don't think he really mattered for the 2nd army; he pissed off the Kaiser and several other important people pre-war, which made him person nongrata. Only his friendship with Moltke saved him pre-war. When the war started he had no official job because of his behavior, other than some made up staff position to occupy him and not have him running around OHL insulting people. Without permission and probably out of bordem, having nothing to do at 2nd army's staff, he took over the fighting around Liege on a lark and made a name for himself. Other than that he had no job to go back to; I really don't know what he would have done other than make a nuisance of himself with 2nd army's staff.
Probably at some point, depending on what happens at the Marne and with Moltke, he could get shifted back to OHL or get a staff job at a new army somewhere in the West or East.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_Ludendorff#World_War_I
Ludendorff was first appointed Deputy Chief of Staff to the German Second Army under General Karl von Bülow.
 
As to Ludendorff, I don't think he really mattered for the 2nd army; he pissed off the Kaiser and several other important people pre-war, which made him person nongrata. Only his friendship with Moltke saved him pre-war. When the war started he had no official job because of his behavior, other than some made up staff position to occupy him and not have him running around OHL insulting people. Without permission and probably out of bordem, having nothing to do at 2nd army's staff, he took over the fighting around Liege on a lark and made a name for himself. Other than that he had no job to go back to; I really don't know what he would have done other than make a nuisance of himself with 2nd army's staff.
Probably at some point, depending on what happens at the Marne and with Moltke, he could get shifted back to OHL or get a staff job at a new army somewhere in the West or East.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_Ludendorff#World_War_I

Ludendorff had been appointed the Quartermaster General of 2nd Army. That made him the second man of the army, although the job had nothing to do with operational planning. - Just like it was hoped that the Quartermaster General of the OHL, General von Stein, would prop up the soft and undecided Moltke (however, Stein failed to perform), Ludendorff could have stiffened the back of Bülow in the Marne Crisis.
That Ludendorff got involved at Liège had to do with the fact that he had been the chief planner for the coup.
Ludendorff's pre-war disgrace is a myth. In fact, he got a career boost. Regimental CO for hardly more than a year (a position essential for all further advance); Brigade Commander at Straßburg (with promotion to Generalmajor); Quartermaster General of 2nd Army on mobilisation. - It is, however, true that his expectation to become Moltke's operation officer at OHL (replacing Tappen) was not fulfilled.
 
I more or less agree with Wiking. The end situation will be a bit better in the east, but without the two corps remaining west not significantly. I don´t think those two corps will change the western front greatly either, though they might do some good there.

But interesting will be the changes in the long run:

In the east after this initial successes Prittwitz is the likely choice for Ober Ost. How will he handle the eastern front? Which ideas for handling occupied territory develops his staff? Behind the otl procedures Ludendorff was the driving force. The cultural influencing seems like a waste of resources during the war. Other goals of the occupation authorities were contradicting within themselves. Will this happen ittl as well?

What happens with the OHL? Falkenhayn will replace Moltke as otl. With a less wasteful Ober Ost he might have some additional troops. What will he do with them? And while he might hold onto the office longer without Hindenburg and Ludendorff he will probably be ousted sooner or later. Will Prittwitz replace him? What will he do in the West? And who will replace him should he die during the war as otl?
 
What happens with the OHL? Falkenhayn will replace Moltke as otl. With a less wasteful Ober Ost he might have some additional troops. What will he do with them? And while he might hold onto the office longer without Hindenburg and Ludendorff he will probably be ousted sooner or later. Will Prittwitz replace him? What will he do in the West? And who will replace him should he die during the war as otl?[/QUOTE]


I remember reading that at the beginning of the attack on Verdun Falkenhayn believed he had too few troops and didn't give the fifth army some troops that could have otherwise attacked on the west bank of the Meuse. If I remember correctly the 5th army could have been more succesfull with those troops. So here Falkenhayn might give them the forces to do that. Assuming that enough are there with the less wasteful Ober Ost.
But I'm no expert on this.
 
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