If Novgorod had formed Russia...

I read somewhere once that had Novgorod been a more prominent player in Russia and if they were the ones to form it, rather than Muscovy, Russia would ultimately end up more democratic than it was under the Muscovites.

Can anyone confirm this? If so, how could we see Novgorod realistically become the top-dog in Russia?
 
I read somewhere once that had Novgorod been a more prominent player in Russia and if they were the ones to form it, rather than Muscovy, Russia would ultimately end up more democratic than it was under the Muscovites.

Can anyone confirm this? If so, how could we see Novgorod realistically become the top-dog in Russia?

We have had this come before. Im on my nook, so i cant do a search for you, always supposing that the search function were feeling cooperative.

My recollection is the general consensus was that it was a neat idea, but unlikely to happen partly due to eg tthe need to import food.
 
Only if they have more farmland, Novgorods greatest weakness OTL was a lack of arable land and unless that's fixed they are going to be at a weakness against Muscowy.
 
It's unlikely that Novgorod would be more democratic in a modern sense than Moscow and rule an intact empire, but Novogorod might establish representative institutions ala the Cortes or Estates General that would create more staying power than the Muscovite Zemskii Sobor.
 
Novgorod was so focused on itself it had troubles controlling Pskov (a place they regarded as a daughter city and a fellow republican state), and the freemen of Hlynov hardly ever paid Novgorod any taxes or send any representatives despite being all from there originally.

Here's a list of problems with Novogord vs. Vladimir:

1. No standing army, combined with elected generals. Leads to a lot of military losses, though I suppose that could be changed. Coupled with a lower land productivity and lower population than Zalesye, and you can see how the long term looks bad.

2. The vast Novgorodian territory was controlled directly and in a hereditary manner by the Great Families like those of Borok (Boretsky); Novgorod was trying out feudalism when Moscow and Ryazan were moving towards Ottoman-style Service Gentry. Guess who could raise more professional soldiers that wouldn't be anxious to hurry back for the next election?

3. Moscow (and to a lesser extent Tver, Ryazan and Lithuania) actively recruited talent. Moscow's noble houses come from Crimea, Circassia, Lithuania, Kazan, the Great Horde, Prussia, Wallachia, Poland...you name it. And of course Novgorod. Anyone could serve the Grand Prince/Tsar and provided they had some ability would quickly achieve prominence.

In a republican system like Novgorod's, the Grand Prince/Tsar wouldn't be promoting you. You had to promote yourself. And if you wanted estates, you had to start machinations to oust some of the current owners out.

Needless to say, service gentry provided the professional fighting force. See point #1.

4. Moscow, Tver, Galich and Suzdal all fought over Vladimir. Not only because it's the biggest town and it's on the biggest fertile plain in Zalesye, and not only because it's the historical capital, but because it has the Metropolitan.

That is a HUGE factor. It had the spiritual leader of all Russia what was widely recognised as such in an age where it really mattered. He was the one endorsed by the Patriarch in Constantinople.

By contrast, the position of the Galician-Lithuanian orthodox Metropolitan was used in a very cynical manner by the Lithuanian state, and things only became worse once Lithuania took on Catholicism.

As for Novgorod - their elected Vladyko, the Archbishop? Wasn't a recognized archbishop. As far as Constantinople was concerned Novgorod only had a bishops's seat.

So when Moscow wins the struggle over the legacy of Vladimir, they have the legitimate Metropolitan (later Patriarch), and Novgorod has a local, elected prince-bishop. Which is more useful for the unification?

5. Novgorod's North had its primary value in the ability to gather fur tribute from the locals, whether through the Finnic/Russified nobles or through the managers of the great boyar estates.

Except that as early as say 129x, you have unregistered settlers from Zalesye coming north to escape the Mongol raiding and settling everywhere. Good you say? More tax base? NO, bad.

They did not recognize Novgorod's rule! They often fought with the old Russian settlers and local Finns alike. They fished, farmed, and paid no taxes. And if the Novgorodian boyars tried to force them they...appealed to their nominal sovreigns. Typically the princes of Galich-Mersky.

Who of course couldn't collect taxes from them either but were more than happy to raid Novgorod's domains and grab that fur tax for themselves. And Novgorod's republican state was never quick enough to react.

Already by the 1320s you have various Zalesye princes traversing Novgorodian lands to go and gather tribute from the lords of Pechora and Yugra, who were supposedly Novgorodian tributaries since the 11th c.!

...with relative impunity.

6. Novgorod had a terrible notion of what diplomacy looks like. Because of their elected offices, they sent hotheads where tactful folks might do, and frightened men to places where one might need some inner steel. Other than with Lithuania and partly the Hanse, they never managed to establish a single lasting alliance.

They even gave away two strong claims over their entire state to Moscow, based on the language of the diplomatic protocol which the envoys misused, and which Moscow later pressed for.

7. Novgorod's rash young men (of the same kind that once founded Hlynov) often banded together to go for ushkui raids that hit Russian and Tatar cities down the Volga, sometimes pretty seriously. They (or their vassals) were also engaged in serious raiding/counter-raiding of the same kind with the Finns who were under Swedish sovereignty.

They were basically latter-day Vikings, as late as the 15th c. River pirates that the state tacitly supported. And they often attacked the very areas from where they could otherwise import grain (Kazan! Russian princes extracted so much bread from old Bulgar it boggles the mind that the trade never resumed after the Horde weakened).

Nobody likes pirates.

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I mean, I really do like Novgorod, and I almost wish Russia had a longer "Italian" period where there were republics and city-states that competed and tried out new things, but I hope I explained the internal challenges well enough. They'd have to be addressed before one can create a Novgorodian Russia.
 
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I see. So, long story short, it would be very, very, very difficult to get a Novgorod-dominated Russia, short of some major divergences which would probably radically change Novgorod so we wouldn't recognize it any more.

Out of curiosity, say by some winning the lottery luck, Novgorod manages to dominate and eventually unify Russia. Would you say they would have a more democratic tradition than OTL?
 
Out of curiosity, say by some winning the lottery luck, Novgorod manages to dominate and eventually unify Russia. Would you say they would have a more democratic tradition than OTL?

It would probably develop into something like the Polish szlachta-dominated state, with the core Novgorodian lands also extending the franchise to the free peasants.

They'd have to come up with some concept of how to deal with other major cities, either by letting them send representatives or by handing them out to the nobles families of the voting, political boyardom.

I'd fully expect frequent armed confrontations between factions once the empire grows large enough.

More democratic than Moscow? Yes I suppose so. Though the Zamski Sobor had very wide franchise, it wasn't called regularly. Here there was a tradition that was similar in scope but with a history of regular assembly.

And of course there isn't a Novgorodian lord who could arrange a marriage with Zoe Paleologina, so that delightful Byzantine autocracy could in fact never take root at all.

Would it be a very efficient state? I have my doubts. But more democratic? Quite possible.
 
When did the northeast passage start being used? How would Novgorod be affected by trade with the rest of Europe that didnt have to go through the baltic?
 
When did the northeast passage start being used? How would Novgorod be affected by trade with the rest of Europe that didnt have to go through the baltic?

People were sailing past the Kara Gates by the 16th c. and the first settlement on the Mouths of the Ob was built ca. 1600. But that is very hostile sailing terrain, and needed the development of a whole new class of people (Pomors) and a whole new ship type (koch) to exploit early.

By the mid-17th c. the Tsars forbade sailing that route because they were afraid that the English/Dutch might bypass Russian markets and go directly to Siberia. How likely that is is unknown but seems a bit doubtful to me that the westerners would ever displace the Russians completely.

In the 18th c. Peter I forbade building of traditional ships and ordered all shipwrights to follow standard western models. Most of those ships could not navigate the passage safely so the settlement of the region stopped as it stopped being competitive with the southern river routes.

The first complete sailing of the North-East passage wasn't completed until the early Soviet era iirc.

If you mean "when did people start sailing past Norway" - the middle ages, certainly by 8xx. Norse went to Bjarmia/Perm by sea, Finns raided Karelians by boat, Swedes/Norwegians raided Russia via the white Sea, Pomors settled Spitsbergen by sea. Godunov sent his embassies to the HRE the long way as well. ALL of Russia used that route because all of Eastern Europe (Poland, Teutons, Sweden, Denmark) was very strenuously resisting Russian attempts to get a port on the Baltic and Russia didn't succeed in any final manner until the Great Northern War.
 
RBG: Can you expand on what you mean by "Service Gentry"?

I know how the Ottomans organized their cavalry along those lines during the expansion era but I'd like to know how you're using it here.
 
People were sailing past the Kara Gates by the 16th c. and the first settlement on the Mouths of the Ob was built ca. 1600. But that is very hostile sailing terrain, and needed the development of a whole new class of people (Pomors) and a whole new ship type (koch) to exploit early.

By the mid-17th c. the Tsars forbade sailing that route because they were afraid that the English/Dutch might bypass Russian markets and go directly to Siberia. How likely that is is unknown but seems a bit doubtful to me that the westerners would ever displace the Russians completely.

In the 18th c. Peter I forbade building of traditional ships and ordered all shipwrights to follow standard western models. Most of those ships could not navigate the passage safely so the settlement of the region stopped as it stopped being competitive with the southern river routes.

The first complete sailing of the North-East passage wasn't completed until the early Soviet era iirc.

If you mean "when did people start sailing past Norway" - the middle ages, certainly by 8xx. Norse went to Bjarmia/Perm by sea, Finns raided Karelians by boat, Swedes/Norwegians raided Russia via the white Sea, Pomors settled Spitsbergen by sea. Godunov sent his embassies to the HRE the long way as well. ALL of Russia used that route because all of Eastern Europe (Poland, Teutons, Sweden, Denmark) was very strenuously resisting Russian attempts to get a port on the Baltic and Russia didn't succeed in any final manner until the Great Northern War.

Is there any way to speed up that first to the 1300s? My thought was English or somebody else could sell grain to Novgorod, making dependence on the rest of Russia for grain less. Also increase the spread of ideas from the rest of Europe.
 
RBG: Can you expand on what you mean by "Service Gentry"?

I know how the Ottomans organized their cavalry along those lines during the expansion era but I'd like to know how you're using it here.

They were gentry that held land grants based on their service, both military and at court. The grants were not hereditary - that existed too but was much less common. They could be revoked. They were not encastellated. If you failed to show up, you could lose it. Basically, apply what you know about Timars to this situation and you won't be too far off.

In Muscovite Russia certain people fell into the "Service" class from 1300 to 1680s: - the pomeschiks of the Hundreds cavalry, the functionaries of the Dvor, chancellery workers, Tatars, Cossacks, gunners and streltsi.

They were free (non-serfs, non-kholops) people that were compensated for government service in land, salaries or tax exemptions. The difference between a mercenary and a servitor was that the contracts were rarely up for negotiation. The difference between a servitor and a baron was that the holdings and the ranks were rarely private and hereditary.

Justin Green said:
Is there any way to speed up that first to the 1300s? My thought was English or somebody else could sell grain to Novgorod, making dependence on the rest of Russia for grain less. Also increase the spread of ideas from the rest of Europe.

Did England have a large surplus of grain in 1300? Novgorod certainly had a good deal of money. They often outspent Moscow on limited high-value items (equipping an awesome army that would promptly lose, building impressive fortresses to counter the Swedes, that kind of thing). In an emergency they could certainly import food, but even Kholmogory to Novgorod is an immense distance to cover.

I don't think Novgorod was really isolated from "western ideas" any more than Poland was; but it had strong emotional attachment to its republican traditions and I don't see that changing voluntarily.
 
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