If not from primates, then from what other line?

I can't see birds becoming really intelligent, or at least flying birds, they are super optimised for extreme lightness, a big brain wouldn't be light and so would not be an evolutionary advantage. Flightless birds are another matter.

Dolphins or whales I can see but their civilisation would be so different to ours that it's unimaginable. Who knows what's going on in those huge whale brains as it is? They could be way ahead of us for all we know.

Very good points, but the problem with sentient birds and cetaceans is that both species lack efficient manipulators,
and it is quite unlikely that birds and especially cetaceans ever will develop efficient manipulators.

As Shimbo just said, the really big brains that are required for human-level intelligence would just be too heavy for a flying bird, and flightless birds move around by walking on their legs, resulting in the fact that their feet, which are the only bodyparts of birds that are remotely likely to evolve into complex manipulators, are no longer likely to evolve into complex manipulators.

...and without complex manipulators, a species can never become capable of complex tool-making.

And complex tool-making is crucial for building an actual civilisation that are comparable with human civilisations.

Some kind of ant like collective intelligence again is so different to our ideas of civilisation that for all we know there's one already.

That's very true - an intelligent and advanced eusocial species with a collective intelligence would be so radically different from anything we know, that we'd have to redefine the very defenition of the words "sentience" and "civilisation" in order to describe it.

For a more human style intelligence and civilisation, how about kangaroos?

That's somewhat unlikely, due to the more primitive brain structure of marsupials.

It's not impossible, but it would take quite a bit longer than the evolution of primitive primates into humans did.
 

ninebucks

Banned
A species needs to be of a certain size before it can afford to abandon so many of its advantages to invest in intelligence.

The missing-links between the rodents and rodenta sapiens would be bulky, slow and not particularly intelligent, and would probably not survive.
 

NapoleonXIV

Banned
So do I. But something as small as a Goa'uld wouldn't be very intelligent without significant cybernetic enhancement. :mad:

Anyway, I think rodents would be a good choice.

But the Goa'uld aren't intelligent on their own, they steal the brain of the host, it's the MEMORY they carry. Isn't it:confused:
 

NapoleonXIV

Banned
Very good points, but the problem with sentient birds and cetaceans is that both species lack efficient manipulators,
and it is quite unlikely that birds and especially cetaceans ever will develop efficient manipulators.

As Shimbo just said, the really big brains that are required for human-level intelligence would just be too heavy for a flying bird, and flightless birds move around by walking on their legs, resulting in the fact that their feet, which are the only bodyparts of birds that are remotely likely to evolve into complex manipulators, are no longer likely to evolve into complex manipulators.

...and without complex manipulators, a species can never become capable of complex tool-making.

And complex tool-making is crucial for building an actual civilisation that are comparable with human civilisations.


That's very true - an intelligent and advanced eusocial species with a collective intelligence would be so radically different from anything we know, that we'd have to redefine the very defenition of the words "sentience" and "civilisation" in order to describe it.



That's somewhat unlikely, due to the more primitive brain structure of marsupials.

It's not impossible, but it would take quite a bit longer than the evolution of primitive primates into humans did.

Couldn't beaks, combined with wings whether used for flight or not and/or talons, become complex manipulators?

Birds have the same sort of needs (ie flight, like bipedalism) that encouraged big brains in man (ie need for better/color/stereoscopic vision

Brains can be made on a light-but-efficient design, like anything else.
 
Ther is a SF story I read years ago where a Couple of Interns smuggle a Piglet into the materity ward.
They are planning to play a joke on one of the nurses. Except a Senior Doctor Intecepts them.

Several Months later the Doctor presents a Paper, showing Man decended from the Suidae, not the Primates.

Early primates were basically rodents
I resemble that remark--Whe Primates have been at war with the Rodents for millions of Years.
 
Since we do not really know why our ancestors developed intelligence as an evolutionary adaption, it is difficult to speculate why another species would do likewise.

I think the best we could speculate on is to remove the primates from the evolutionary scheme of things, subsitute another group and guess what would happen.
 
But in the case of the bacteria, they don't need to be intelligent themselves, they just open huge numbers of connections in the host's brains, making the host intelligent.

But Stargate implies that the personality of the Symbiont suppresses that of the host, not modifing it (which would be far more plausible).
 
Couldn't beaks, combined with wings whether used for flight or not and/or talons, become complex manipulators?

Birds have the same sort of needs (ie flight, like bipedalism) that encouraged big brains in man (ie need for better/color/stereoscopic vision

Brains can be made on a light-but-efficient design, like anything else.

Beaks are too simple, in that they only posesses two digits and aren't articulated. And the current function - eating - isn't likely to be sacrificed for tool manipulation. [Simplisticly]When our ancestors stood up, that freed the front paws to develop into hands - birds don't have those 'free appendages' apart from wings, but those are so specialized that it would take a lot to bring them back to 'arms & hands'.

setreoscopic/colour vision is very important to birds for flying and hunting, but that doesn't alone provide the mental tool set for complex thought. In fact, you could say that the specialization they require precludes the development of different mental structures.

Brains are already incredibly efficient - we don't carry around a lot of excess brain mass just for the heck of it, becuase the energy requirements are just too great. Evolution weeds out inefficiencies (at least, until very recently when we started producing reliable food surpluses), so I don't know there's that much scope there.

For flight-balance purposes, you could have a larger avian brain that's decentralized throughout the nervous system rather than clumped in the head, but you still have a problem of energy consumption that pushes out other vital functions.
 
Beaks are too simple, in that they only posesses two digits and aren't articulated. And the current function - eating - isn't likely to be sacrificed for tool manipulation. [Simplisticly]When our ancestors stood up, that freed the front paws to develop into hands - birds don't have those 'free appendages' apart from wings, but those are so specialized that it would take a lot to bring them back to 'arms & hands'.

Indeed, bird's wings are so extremely adapted for flight (and ONLY for flight) that it is very hard to adapt these wings for something else than flying and showing off feathers.

Another thing is that bird's wings have only three digits whose sole function is supporting feathers and optimising flight.
It will be very hard to adapt such specialized limbs to fulfill some purpose other than flying and showing off feathers.

The only real possebility of a bird species evolving fairly complex manipulators would be to let an atavism that makes primitive fingers and claws develop instead of real wings become very common in a species of bird that is (nearly) flightless.

This was, by the way, the premise of the Carakilla's in the The Future is Wild-series, allthough I have to add to that that such atavisms are pretty rare, and IMHO, the Carakilla's seemed to be more of an attempt to recreate a dinosaur from a bird rather than an attempt to create a very plausible flightless bird of prey...

setreoscopic/colour vision is very important to birds for flying and hunting, but that doesn't alone provide the mental tool set for complex thought. In fact, you could say that the specialization they require precludes the development of different mental structures.

That's quite true - both birds and primates began developing complex brains because they lived in a threedimensional world (in trees and, in the case of the birds, in the sky).

Though living in a complex environment and eating easily digestable, high-energy food like meat certainly helps species to develop their brain, allthough like MarkA already pointed out; exactly what made our ancestors develop sentience and human-level intelligence is still a bit of a mystery

Brains are already incredibly efficient - we don't carry around a lot of excess brain mass just for the heck of it, becuase the energy requirements are just too great. Evolution weeds out inefficiencies (at least, until very recently when we started producing reliable food surpluses), so I don't know there's that much scope there.

For flight-balance purposes, you could have a larger avian brain that's decentralized throughout the nervous system rather than clumped in the head, but you still have a problem of energy consumption that pushes out other vital functions.

Hmmm.....you could be right about the weight of brains not really being a problem...

However, there's still another important issue concerning brains that IIRC hasn't been adressed yet;
exactly how big does a brain need to be in order to be capable of true sentience?

I'm talking about both brainsize in relation to bodymass and absolute brainsize here;
exactly what would be the minimal size of a sentient brain?

Is the human brain pretty much the smallest possible brain that's capable of sentience, or could we theoretically have
sentient creatures that are, say, the size of a large dog, or a cat, or perhaps even something smaller than that?

As for the huge energy consumption of brains - that's very true. For example: the human brain makes up only 2%
of the average human's bodymass, yet it consumes about 25% percent of the energy that the human body produces.

Evolving a brain that is as big and advanced as the human brain automatically means sacrificing a lot of energy
that would otherwise be used or even neccesary to run other organs, especially the digestive track.
 
Indeed, bird's wings are so extremely adapted for flight (and ONLY for flight) that it is very hard to adapt these wings for something else than flying and showing off feathers.

Another thing is that bird's wings have only three digits whose sole function is supporting feathers and optimising flight.
It will be very hard to adapt such specialized limbs to fulfill some purpose other than flying and showing off feathers.

The only real possebility of a bird species evolving fairly complex manipulators would be to let an atavism that makes primitive fingers and claws develop instead of real wings become very common in a species of bird that is (nearly) flightless.

The author Poul Anderson once devised a way around this in some of his SF novels. Basically assume a species of bird (birdlike alien in his case) where the wings are sufficiently long in proportion to the body that they are able to support the weight of the body on the ground (rather like a man walking on crutches), thereby freeing up the feet to act as manipulators. It was recognised that this would be rather slow and ungainly on the ground, but their primary means of locomotion was flight anyway.

And of course from there I suppose you could evolve a version where the wings become more efficient as crutches and less as wings until you have a flightless version that can move swiftly on the ground and develop any extra body mass needed for sentience if the flying version can't manage it.
 

mojojojo

Gone Fishin'
:mad:you all go ape-shit over this thread, while my New World primate thread gets left out in the cold:p
 
The author Poul Anderson once devised a way around this in some of his SF novels. Basically assume a species of bird (birdlike alien in his case) where the wings are sufficiently long in proportion to the body that they are able to support the weight of the body on the ground (rather like a man walking on crutches), thereby freeing up the feet to act as manipulators. It was recognised that this would be rather slow and ungainly on the ground, but their primary means of locomotion was flight anyway.

And of course from there I suppose you could evolve a version where the wings become more efficient as crutches and less as wings until you have a flightless version that can move swiftly on the ground and develop any extra body mass needed for sentience if the flying version can't manage it.

With all defference to Poul, but wings that were strong enough to support full body mass would require a complete reengineering, and would lose their effectiveness for flying. Flying requires flex strength, walking/standing would require compression strength of the wing/leg bones.

I think it more likely for the two feet to evolve into one foot/one hand, allowing manipulation but only from a balanced, standing position (say, one really broad foot and a smaller manipulator foot/hand on an articulated longer leg/arm). Locomotion still confined to flying. But still pretty out-there as a viable sentient candidate.
 

Alcuin

Banned
But Stargate implies that the personality of the Symbiont suppresses that of the host, not modifing it (which would be far more plausible).

So... I have an original idea yes? I shall write a bestselling science-fiction novel off the back of it and make lots and lots of bucks and win Nebula Awards and Oscars and Noble Prices and retire!
 
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