If Nazi Germany Used A Different Method Than Genocide....

Soundgarden

Banned
I just want to make this perfectly clear that I AM NOT a Nazi Sympathizer, Defendant, Apologist, or anything that would justify their actions. In fact, my grandfather is Jewish and he fled to my home country of Sweden before the Nazis came to power, which in Nazi Germany's eyes, I'd be considered a Jew(unless I was close friends with Hitler, I'd be classified as "Honorary Aryan"). I can however, see how anti-semitism worked in their favor before things got out of hand. Hitler basically capitalized on existing anti-semitism and turned it into a Patriotic Phenomenon. However, lets say Hitler was saner and more rational than he was in OTL, and had a different solution to the Jewish Question?, how would that affect the The Reich along with the war?

Somebody posted a list of things they could've done as an alternative to the Holocaust. His list was.....

1. Hitler is less insane, but just as charismatic/manipulative as ever. (I dunno, maybe he didn't get stabbed in the groin during Somme, perhaps he was never sprayed with poison gas...you decide :p)
2. Hitler and the Nazi's are still Racist/Anti-Semitic, but not to insane, genocidal levels. They treat Jews and Slavs in the way South Africa treated blacks during Apartheid, or the way Imperial Japan treated Koreans.
3. "Honorary Aryan" status is granted to Jews who denounce the "Jewish Conspiracy" and stop practicing Judaism. But only the most "aryan" of these "Honorary Aryans" are allowed to join the Nazi Party. Jewish schools are closed, and Jewish Children are sent to special schools to "Germanize" them.
4.Doctors, scientists, and other professionals are exempt(in other words, if you can help us win the war, we're tolerate you).
5. Romas, Homosexuals, Disabled, Etc. are still persecuted in much the same way, since they're considered small enough groups to be dealt with, or nazi doctors try to find a cure for the latter two....
6. When Nazi Germany invades the east, they collaborate with whites (eg. Anti-Communists/Anti-Stalinists). Puppet states like Ukraine, Belarus, Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania are set up.
7. These are treated the same way the Japanese treated Manchuko. The slavs are an underclass, but they're simply too many of them to exterminate. Best put them to work and set up an apartheid style system. Some of them will be earmarked for "Germanization" and will be considered equal to the German Settlers. Laws for Jews similar to those in Poland (see below) will be enacted for Jews in "Mitteleuropa."
8. In Poland, apply the same laws you did back in the Reich to the Jews there. Of course, they wont be granted Honorary Aryan status like the Jews in Germany/Western Europe; they'll be raised to Pole status. (The Poles, like the rest of the slavs, are an underclass) Some Poles and Polish jews will be fit for Germanization and will once again be considered equal to the German settlers.
9. Allow puppets and allies like Croatia, Vichy, Italy, Spain (If they join the Axis) to deal with Jews however they see fit. They can enact similar laws to those of Germany, including Honorary Croatian/French/Italian/Spanish, etc. If any of these governments decide to exterminate their populations, Nazi Germany will offer "Honorary Aryan" status to those who offer to Abide by Germany's laws about Jews and Judaism and help settle the east.
10. Within 20 to 50 years, the Jewish culture will have been all but suppressed in Europe (look at how Franco almost killed off the Basque and Catalan languages in 40 years!), and most people with "Jewish" ancestry are less than 1/3rd Jewish. Since 1/3rd is the minimum amount of "Jewish Blood" needed to be considered a Jew, the are virtually no Jews left in Europe. Europe is now Judenfrei (albeit under a different definition than OTL).

While not lovey-dovey democracy, its nowhere near as bad as OTL. To get this sort of thinking on Hitler and the Nazi Party's part would require many changes, perhaps one of the founders of the Nazi Party (or even a close friend of Hitler, ala. Rohm) is a Jew who denounced Judaism and is a rabid German Nationalist. I remember reading somewhere that there was some self-hating Jew (I can't remember his name, however) who denounced Judaism and wrote a bunch of books about the "Jewish Conspiracy." Apparently he died 1938-ish and Himmler said something like "If only all Jews were like this" when he read his works. Get someone like him to be a close friend of Hitler's or an influential member of the Nazi party, and the scenario above might not be so farfetched.

Since many Jews in Europe were culturally assimilated, I'm pretty sure most would go along with it as long as they were protected and had the same rights as "natural" Aryans. For those who didn't accept Aryanization, they could emigrated out of protest/frustration rather than fear.

Its also likely that they would migrate to Palestine 10 years earlier and formed a Jewish State than. Their were small waves of Jews who settled there in the 1930s. It was a problem with the Grand Motif though, so they would've had to fight for their independance and possibly fight the Germans as well, making The Provisional State of Israel a big contributor to World War II.

I'm not sure though if the United States would completely sponsor a Jewish state without the circumstances of genocide though, since they were at first neutral. That means, (more) Jews can fleed to Sweden, since it was a non-control Nazi State for temporary asylum.

As far as the war is concerned for Nazi Germany, they would've had a much better chance of winning, or at the very least, not be as vulnerable as they were by 1943, thus prolonging the war. All those raw materials used to contrust the concentration camps could've been used for aircraft, tanks, and weapons of unimaginable destruction. That zykon D gas that they used for the gas chambers could've been used to fight off any opposing forces. Jewish scientists who they would tolerate could've helped them reach their goal of building an atomic bomb before the US did(as scary as that would be).

All in all, what made Hitler rise to power was also his downfall. Just wondering what your thoughts on this would be?
 
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If Hitler is more rational and not intent on Blood for the Blood God, then there won't be a WWII or German political development as we know it. It's worth reflecting here the lesson of the Brenner Pass in 1934: the Nazis were never moderate, Mussolini just showed that they could be contained, it was in 1935 that they began to undo all that. Even assuming the improbable circumstances of a more rational Hitler assuming power in 1930s Germany to start with, such a Hitler is not going to be akin to his OTL self, to a point where WWII is either never going to happen or if it does it will be so different from OTL that the similarities will be superficial, if that.
 

Soundgarden

Banned
If Hitler is more rational and not intent on Blood for the Blood God, then there won't be a WWII or German political development as we know it. It's worth reflecting here the lesson of the Brenner Pass in 1934: the Nazis were never moderate, Mussolini just showed that they could be contained, it was in 1935 that they began to undo all that. Even assuming the improbable circumstances of a more rational Hitler assuming power in 1930s Germany to start with, such a Hitler is not going to be akin to his OTL self, to a point where WWII is either never going to happen or if it does it will be so different from OTL that the similarities will be superficial, if that.

Actually, people wanted Hitler dead even before he became German Chancelor. He would've been enough of a controversial figure to start a World War.
 
Actually, people wanted Hitler dead even before he became German Chancelor. He would've been enough of a controversial figure to start a World War.

I'm sure at least some did, but the reality remains that a rational Hitler would not have gambled on waiting for his enemies to intrigue each other to a point where he could assume totalitarian power by default.
 

Soundgarden

Banned
I'm sure at least some did, but the reality remains that a rational Hitler would not have gambled on waiting for his enemies to intrigue each other to a point where he could assume totalitarian power by default.

Well nobody assumes power by default, a rational Hitler would've had to attack his neighboring counties, how he did it was what also led to his downfall.

Lets be responsible, Operation Barborassa, and not The Holocaust(which wasn't known till the end of the war) is what launched World War II. Instead of that wasted manpower towards those innocent victims, it could've took down their enemies they were fighting against.

I think its also possible that somebody would launch an attack on Nazi Germany, which could've started the war right there. Needless to say, I can see a World War II with a saner and more rational(but still racist and anti-semtic) Hitler.
 
Someone did a brilliant timeline with the exact same premise. For this Hitler, subjugation and discrimination of the "Untermensch" was enough, and a very different cold war develops after Germany defeats the Soviet Union and repulses the allies in Normandy and Sicily:

http://web.archive.org/web/20071015203427/http://valtakunta.eu/blog/?page_id=2
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...History-and-background)&p=5885839#post5885839

Even if Hitler was less racist, however, I still wouldn't wanna' live in that world. It'd basically be Apartheid on a continental scale. :(
 
I'd be classified as "Honorary Aryan"). I can however, see how anti-semitism worked in their favor before things got out of hand. Hitler basically capitalized on existing anti-semitism and turned it into a Patriotic Phenomenon. However, lets say Hitler was saner and more rational than he was in OTL, and had a different solution to the Jewish Question?, how would that affect the The Reich along with the war?

Somebody posted a list of things they could've done as an alternative to the Holocaust. His list was.....



Since many Jews in Europe were culturally assimilated, I'm pretty sure most would go along with it as long as they were protected and had the same rights as "natural" Aryans. For those who didn't accept Aryanization, they could emigrated out of protest/frustration rather than fear.

The anti Semitism went to deep fort that.


Its also likely that they would migrate to Palestine 10 years earlier and formed a Jewish State than. Their were small waves of Jews who settled there in the 1930s. It was a problem with the Grand Motif though, so they would've had to fight for their independance and possibly fight the Germans as well, making The Provisional State of Israel a big contributor to World War II.

I'm not sure though if the United States would completely sponsor a Jewish state without the circumstances of genocide though, since they were at first neutral. That means, (more) Jews can fleed to Sweden, since it was a non-control Nazi State for temporary asylum.

Germans did deport to palestine but the British limited the amount of jew allowed to arrive there. They stoped deporting there once the saw the jews anded to make it a Jewish state.

As far as the war is concerned for Nazi Germany, they would've had a much better chance of winning, or at the very least, not be as vulnerable as they were by 1943, thus prolonging the war. All those raw materials used to contrust the concentration camps could've been used for aircraft, tanks, and weapons of unimaginable destruction. That zykon D gas that they used for the gas chambers could've been used to fight off any opposing forces. Jewish scientists who they would tolerate could've helped them reach their goal of building an atomic bomb before the US did(as scary as that would be).

All in all, what made Hitler rise to power was also his downfall. Just wondering what your thoughts on this would be?

Materials to built camps are not the one need for tanks and aircraft.



you need to replace Hitler with Reinhard Heydrich.

"Zyklon B was used in the concentration camps also for delousing to control typhus. In quantitative terms, more than 95% of the Zyklon B delivered to Auschwitz was used for delousing and less than 5% in the gas chambers"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zyklon_B

The Germans had better chemical warfare agents like Sarin and Tabun.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarin

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabun_(nerve_agent)

Not sure the genocide made much difference on way other the other to the war.

The alternative to Genocide would have been to deport Jews and other to a puppet state they Germans could control and exploit.

Their big problem was they had too many enemies not enough resources and rubbish economics. Both the Russians and Americans were going to go to war on them sooner or later.
 
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Make something up about the Blood Libel not being about actually killing Christian children for making their Passover stuff with, but was kidnapping their children so as to have strong Germans to take care of them when they are older. Say that the larger amount of cities meant it was easier, so they became Germanized more quickly. Still blame foreign Jews for the hell of it. Also feed people in concentration camps. They could have gotten a lot of free labor out of them if they hadn't had the SS selling so much of their food on the black market.
 
A better question would perhaps be "how much more efficient than the Nazi's OTL could a Generic Right-Wing Revanchist Germany possibly be?"

As people keep pointing out, rational people tend to take sensible decisions, and starting a war is rarely a sensible decision. The Soviets would probably have to start it, but they were actually quite cautious during the prelude to WW2.

Sorry, by WW2 i mean WW2INO!
 

CalBear

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Actually, people wanted Hitler dead even before he became German Chancelor. He would've been enough of a controversial figure to start a World War.

People ALWAYS want politicians leading governments dead. For every person who wanted him dead that were tens of thousands who didn't (or didn't care either way, which is actually the same thing.)
 
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