If like many here argue that the Longbow was considered an outdated weapon by the 16th century then why did the Mary Rose sink with 250 of them?

Rifles were much slower than smoothbores, probably by a factor of three. 18th century soldiers were taught to aim when executing their firing drill; they weren't 'ignoring everything'.
They were drilled to ignore incoming fire or anything else that could distract them from the task of reloading.

Musketeers in formation can present far more firepower than skirmishing cavalry, since multiple ranks of men with minimal file intervals can present their pieces simultaneously. Each rider is thus facing about six musketeers for any given length of front.
Yes. Directly to the front, at short range. The original suggestion was to employ musketeers in close order, firing by ranks, against Comanche Indians. The Comanches, not being trained in European tactics, would be unlikely to ride up in front of the formed musketeers and engage in frontal firefights. Instead they would swarm around the formed musketeers. To avoid being shot down from flank and rear, the musketeers would have to form square or hedgehog, giving up mobility and dispersing their firepower, while remaining highly vulnerable to Comanche archery.

Furthermore, the Texas or US forces deployed were very small - too small for such formations.
 
Yes. Directly to the front, at short range. The original suggestion was to employ musketeers in close order, firing by ranks, against Comanche Indians. The Comanches, not being trained in European tactics, would be unlikely to ride up in front of the formed musketeers and engage in frontal firefights. Instead they would swarm around the formed musketeers. To avoid being shot down from flank and rear, the musketeers would have to form square or hedgehog, giving up mobility and dispersing their firepower, while remaining highly vulnerable to Comanche archery.

Furthermore, the Texas or US forces deployed were very small - too small for such formations.
The suggestion was for the English to use horse archer tactics against 16th century European armies, far larger and better trained than American frontier militias.

Mass formations are good for both mobility and all around defense; one of the strengths of columns in the Napoleonic wars was their combination of speed and their ability to quickly form a solid square. Because of the size of the horses, very few would be able to bring their bows to bear even against a compact formation, while still being subject to heavy firepower both from it and neighboring formations. Moreover, the ability to ride up close is nullified as long as the musketeers retain a reserve of firepower, so the one advantage of mounted archery would be worth very little.
 
To avoid being shot down from flank and rear, the musketeers would have to form square or hedgehog, giving up mobility and dispersing their firepower, while remaining highly vulnerable to Comanche archery.

It's not true that square formations were immobile. Whilst they'd want to remain stationary to receive a charge, soldiers in square could and did manoeuvre around the battlefield.
 
Easter european (Polish, Hungarian, Russian) experience noted in XV and XVI century that horse archer based armies, mainly Tatars, were quite vulnerable to firearms fire and this kinda lasted well into mid XVII century (with Poles specifically turning the firearm heavy centre at Beresteczko in 1651 against Tatars). Hard part was forcing them to favorable engagement, thus infantry had to be protected on flanks by cavalry and gunpowder ambushes were not uncommon, but few salvos could turn the battle. This largely influenced eastern european infantry to be mainly firearms based at higher percentage than in the west. Both Polish and Hungarian training put emphasis on rapidly firing the first salvo by all ranks and much less on efficient reloading.
 
The suggestion was for the English to use horse archer tactics against 16th century European armies, far larger and better trained than American frontier militias.
The suggestion I responded to was made in response to a comment that bow-armed Comanches had an advantage over Texas militia armed with Kentucky long rifles.
Kentucky rifles were muzzle-loaders, I believe, and therefore took ages to reload. A unit of regular musketeers trained to fire by rank or by platoon would probably be more effective.

I agree entirely with the proposition that firearms displaced bows on the basis of performance. Horse archers had no place on even a 16th-century battlefield. However, in certain kinds of frontier skirmishing, bows had parity with muzzle-loading firearms, and deployment of formed infantry for volley fire would be wildly inappropriate.

This does raise a few questions in my mind.

First, how and why did the Bashkirs and similar groups from the Russian hinterland retain the bow as a combat weapon? Making and training with the weapons would be a substantial effort. Had they fought anyone in the previous 100 years? To what extent did the Russian East parallel the American West, with settlement pushing forward and natives attacking?

Second, what were the common arms employed by "Central Asians" (Uzbeks, Tajiks, Kirghiz) against Russian expansion in the mid 1800s? It would appear that by then, they had abandoned archery for firearms. When did this transition take place? It had certainly taken place in India and Afghanistan by the mid-1800s - one sees nothing about archery in any accounts of the Sepoy Mutiny or the Afghan wars.

Another milieu where firearms displaced archery was sengoku Japan. Archery as a ritual practice persisted, but firearms were the primary combat arm at Sekigahara in 1600. When was the transition?
 
I agree entirely with the proposition that firearms displaced bows on the basis of performance. Horse archers had no place on even a 16th-century battlefield. However, in certain kinds of frontier skirmishing, bows had parity with muzzle-loading firearms, and deployment of formed infantry for volley fire would be wildly inappropriate.

I think we agree, then -- there were some specialised situations where bows were equal or superior to guns, but they were rare enough that you'd generally be better off putting your resources into training extra gunners than training a corpse of bowmen.

First, how and why did the Bashkirs and similar groups from the Russian hinterland retain the bow as a combat weapon? Making and training with the weapons would be a substantial effort. Had they fought anyone in the previous 100 years? To what extent did the Russian East parallel the American West, with settlement pushing forward and natives attacking?

AFAIK there was less settlement of the Russian east, with the Czar's government mostly trying to force the natives to pay tribute and accept Russian overlordship rather than clear them out to resettle their lands. As for why some peoples kept the bow, I guess it's probably got a lot to do with the difficulty of retraining your bow-makers to make guns and gunpowder instead. Also, I believe that gunpowder production takes a long time, which might make it difficult for nomads who need to move around a lot.

Another milieu where firearms displaced archery was sengoku Japan. Archery as a ritual practice persisted, but firearms were the primary combat arm at Sekigahara in 1600. When was the transition?

Over the previous half-century, I think; modern firearms were introduced to Japan in 1543, and the warlords there quickly recognised its effectiveness and made strenuous efforts to make more and train men in their use.
 
I've seen the argument made that the longbow was soon superseded in European armies as soon as matchlocks and arquebuses came about, however the Mary Rose ship which sank in 1545, had 250 Longbows onboard along 4000 arrows. In fact it serves as one of the best representations for how the English longbow was as most original ones have not survived the years.

Have people overestimate the impact that matchlocks had with overtaking the longbow? There must be a reason why the longbow seemed to have survived past the time they supposedly became irrelevant?

The Mary Rose had them for defence (it was a big ship, and with not that many cannons), but it's possible some of them were also planned to be transported somewhere by sea, and it's equally possible that their sheer number might have been part of a bragging rights exercise. The Mary Rose was something of a PR vehicle of its day (pun intended). The biggest and most advanced, purpose-built miltary ship England had at that time. If you were Henry, would you not stoke it with plenty of goodies, both traditional weaponry and the latest goodies in weapons tech ? Of course you would. Before the Mary Rose sank, Henry focused on promoting the ship rather heavily, in a sort of Renaissance equivalent to what you see with modern military parades in some nations, or even modern naval equivalents, naval power showcases to the public and foreign dignitaries, etc. If you had just a few sailors on the ship and a few slacking off soldiers, archers included, that would hardly leave a good impression. For public parading, you'd have at least a few dozen aboard.

You have to understand that the Mary Rose was launched in the final heyday of English military archery, a holdover from the previous century. By that point in history, i.e. Henry VIII's time, England still had a lot of functionally medieval warfare traditions, augmented by newer advances such as gunpowder weapons (handgonnes, early arquebuses) and Renaissance ideas for new types of fortifications, etc., etc. It was a transitional era, with a blend of what came and worked before and newer and quickly advancing military concepts.

By the time of the Elizabethan era, several decades later in that same century, longbow archery for military purposes was already seen as being on the way out. Instead, the royal financing and focus on the standing infantry was to raise the number of arquebusiers and early forms of musketeers (specifically those using the caliver, a proto-musket). You had similar developments in the primarily melee infantry, where traditional polearm soldiers like billmen and halberdiers were being increasingly relegated to guard duty and the main battlefield polearm infantrymen were now pikemen. Same as the trend elsewhere in Europe, with the gradual transition from a feudal muster army (though a sophisticated one) to an early modern standing army.

Here's a good article about the whole thing.

The last military use of longbows - and purely improvised by locals, because they didn't have guns handy - was during some scuffle between locals and soldiers during the English Civil War. By that point, more than a century after Henry VIII's time, no one was using longbows for fighting or even hunting anymore. Same with crossbows. By that point, Britain had transitioned into a post-archery military tradition. You see the same thing with the Thirty Years War in Europe, at that same time. Longbows were seen as recreational weapons already in the 17th century.

Furthermore, Balaur has a good post on English military longbowmen here.



Matt Easton has you covered on some other pervasive myths and misconceptions about the role and capabilities of English longbowmen. They are either overrated or underrated in popular culture, and their role as soldiers is often misunderstood in popular portrayals and impressions.

I think the recovery of the Mary Rose is fascinating, because not only did it provide us with a lot of new physical archaeological data on various aspects of medieval life, shipbulding, warfare, tools and weapons, it also served as a snapshot. A snapshot of an already waning era, in which the once very high importance of longbowmen soldiers in the typical English army of the time was beginning to diminish. Under the pressure of new technological advances, as well as changes in period army doctrine and period geopolitics as a whole.

Longbowmen weren't done away with because they were seen as rubbish, they were done away with because they were increasingly seen as obsolete for the new forms of warfare that were spreading throughout Europe. Just as you wouldn't have a 14th century European army use the exact same equipment and tactics as a 9th century European army, or a Roman army from the 4th century AD would not use tactics from a thousand years ago, so too would Renaissance/Tudor era England not keep longbowmen going indefinitely. We did have a jokey thread years ago, where the WI was that England stubbornly kept using longbowmen even in the Peninsular War and other conflicts of the Napoleonic era. Quite frankly, most of us agreed that deploying military archers in the early 1800s out of stubborn tradition would be a fool's errand. Even with the less accurate nature of the era's muskets, the poor longbowmen would get moved down by volley fire.

On a final note, longbows or any other bow types are never truly "outdated", depending on the context. Sure, you won't be shooting people with a warbow (military-grade, high-poundage longbow) these days, but on the off-chance you got lost in the wilderness without a gun and had enough tools with you (a hatchet, a sturdy knife, some string adequate for a bowstring), you could fashion yourself a bow and use it for hunting, or for self-defence. In that sense, the longbow, or any other bow or crossbow, are never truly obsolete. They just wouldn't be the most powerful weapon around in today's warfare.
 
Last edited:
All muskets are muzzle-loaders. Rifles were somewhat slower to reload than smoothbores, as there was more resistance to ramming the shot down the barrel.
definitely. I have a replica long rifle, and loading it is a hassle. Along with having to force the ball down the rifled barrel, you generally also put a patch with it for better accuracy. Plus, it's generally a good idea to use a ball starter first, slowing down the process even more. If you just had to use one in a battle, you could dispense with some of that, but it's still slower than a smooth bore musket...
 
It's funny, because during the Revolutionary Wars, a lot of the French wanted to readopt the pike at the same time lots of English wanted to readopt the bow. Makes you wonder how those battles would have actually played out (assuming the rest of Europe dropped out of the war to watch from the sidelines munching popcorn).
 
It's funny, because during the Revolutionary Wars, a lot of the French wanted to readopt the pike at the same time lots of English wanted to readopt the bow. Makes you wonder how those battles would have actually played out (assuming the rest of Europe dropped out of the war to watch from the sidelines munching popcorn).
Pikes weren't entirely extinct as weapons even in the late 1700s. The French alone still occassionally used simple infantry pikes while defending artillery positions or fortifications, or while charging enemy camps and fortified positions. (Though no European army used pikes in infantry formations anymore, musketeers with bayonets having replaced dedicated pikemen in the regular infantry by the early 18th century.) A shorter form of pike was even more popular in the French Navy during the Revolutionary Wars and the Napoleonic Wars, especially while defending a navy ship from an enemy boarding action. Finally, there was also the use of the spontoon, essentially a late, more diminutive form of the winged spear, as a law enforcement and personal defence weapon, during the French Revolution and afterwards. Patrolling sansculotes were apparently equipped with it quite often. The spointoon was the last commonly used type of infantry spear in European history, the only others being cavalry lances that lasted throughout the 19th century, up until the end of WWI. Poles also occassionally used ordinary pitchforks instead of spears or military forks during the Polish-Soviet War of 1920. The soldiers and militias of the early US manufactured some pikes as a fall-back weapon, should they run out of gunpowder and bayonets would prove impactical.
 
Last edited:
Top