If Ladislaus the Posthumous had not been ill with leukemia ...

[Rurik]

(sorry for my English)


As is known, in our reality, the king of Bohemia and Hungary, the Archduke of Austria Ladislaus the Posthumous died in 1457 from leukemia, and on the eve of his wedding, thus not having time to leave descendants. With his death, the Albertine Habsburg line was interrupted.


But let's imagine what would happen if Ladislaus the Posthumous were not sick with leukemia. Of course, even without this terrible disease, his health would be very fragile, but he would be able to live up to about 30 years (ie, until 1470), and, accordingly, he would be able to marry and acquire heirs. So…

In January 1458, a planned wedding takes place between Ladislavolm Postum and Madeleine Valois, the result of this marriage will be the birth of three children - a son - Louis (1460-1505), and daughters - Catherine (1462 - 1511) and Elizabeth (1466 - 1503).


In domestic and geopolitical terms, the consequences are more than serious. Firstly, the freedom of Matthias Corvinus in this world does not shine, for he was released from prison only by the sudden death of Ladislaus the Posthumous, and he lives and flourishes here. Consequently - Matthias Corwin in this reality here will be quietly killed in prison. However, Ladislaus and his heirs will still have to pursue roughly the same domestic policy that Matthias pursued in our reality (army reform, restriction of the power of the big feudal lords). The fact that Ladislaus is much less ambitious than Matthias is even a plus, because Matyash’s exorbitant ambitions, with all the grandeur of the latter, have done a lot of mischief (say, I strongly doubt that Ladislav betrayed Vlad Tepes). In addition, in this world there will definitely not be a Bohemian war, therefore, the resources of Hungary, Bohemia and Austria are not wasted on this conflict, but launched against their common enemy - the Ottomans. Of course, if the campaigns on the Balkan Peninsula are not very successful, the Turks will not be allowed to go beyond the Danube, and Transylvania, Moldavia and Wallachia in this world will be free from Ottoman rule (and will be allies of the triune Bohemian-Hungarian-Austrian monarchy)


It is clear that Vienna and Linz remain here for the Albertine Habsburg line, while the possessions of the Leopoldine line will be Tyrol, Styria, Carinthia and Carniola.


Moreover, since in this world the king of Poland, Casimir IV, cannot even dream of either the Bohemian or the Hungarian crown for his eldest son, firstly, it changes the balance of the Polish-Lithuanian throne inheritance (the heir of the Polish throne will be Vladislav, and Lithuanian heir - Jan Albrecht), which in turn changes the situation with their marriages. Also, Casimir Polsky will obviously take care of the fact that, in the absence of his prospects in the succession of Bohemia and Hungary, he will secure his sons (the younger ones, Alexander and Sigismund) in Silesia by entering into corresponding dynastic marriages.


Since Madeleine Valois is the wife of Ladislaus the Posthumous, then Gaston de Foix, Prince Vian, will get another wife, Bona of Savoy. The result of the marriage of Prince Vian and Bona of Savoy will be the birth of three children - sons - Francis (1466 - 1522) and Jean (1467 - 1505), and daughter - Eleonora (1469 - 1507)


In turn, due to the alternative marriage of Bona of Savoy, the other wife will also be with Galeazzo Sforza - Barbara Gonzaga, with marriage to which Galeazzo will have only one daughter who died in infancy, will become her. Thus, already in 1476, Lodovico Sforza will get the throne of Milan (which in the future sharply reduces the likelihood of the very onset of reasons for the Italian Wars)


Also, an alternative marriage will be in Saxony. For who is in this world Sidonia Podebrad, so that he becomes the wife of Albrecht III of Saxony? Sorry, but he will not marry a daughter, albeit an influential but specific feudal lord. In this world, his wife will be Agnes Nassau-Weisbaden, and since she had no offspring with her offspring, in this world the division of the Saxon house into the Albertine and Ernestine lines will never happen.


On March 22, 1470 Ladislaus dies, his successor is his 9-year-old son Louis, the regency under which goes to his mother - Madeleine Valois.


In 1476, Louis Habsburg is declared an adult, which is supported by his wedding with his cousin - the Polish princess Sophia. The result of the marriage of Louis and Sofia will be the birth of the following children:

Ladislaus (1480 - 1488)

Elizabeth (1482-1482)

Sofia (1485 - 1544)

Catherine (1486 - 1540)

Albrecht (1489 - 1567)

Barbara (1493 - 1556)

Sigismund (1496-1502)

Ferdinand (1498 - 1563)


Meanwhile, the conflict over the Burgundian inheritance begins, and Louis Habsburg, given that his father is Habsburg, and his mother is Valois, in the most literal sense, "it is written to become" to mediate between Maximilian Habsburg and Louis XI. And the fact that there is a powerful Hungarian army behind Louis Habsburg’s back will be an additional argument in his mediation position ...

 

[Rurik]

Some genealogical schemes caused by the above events.


First, marriages of Ladislaus the Posthumous's daughters

Catherine in 1478 married the Duke of Bavaria Albrecht IV, children from this marriage:

Sabina (1481 - 1516)

Ludwig (1483-1485)

Sigismund II (1486 - 1532), from 1508 the Duke of Bavaria

Susanna (1491 - 1528)

Wilhelm (1492 - 1492)

Ernst (1494 - 1496)


Elizabeth in 1480 marries Friedrich of Brandenburg-Ansbach, children from this marriage:

Margarita (1483 - 1512)

Anna (1487 - 1504)

Catherine (1491 - 1533)

Ladislaus (1494 - 1552), since 1536 the margrave of Brandenburg-Ansbach

Frederick (1496 - 1510)

Elizabeth (1496 - 1524)


Now to the Polish princes and princesses, the children of Casimir IV (more precisely, those of them who will have alternative marriages)

Vladislav (from 1492 who became king of Poland Vladislav IV) in 1474 marries Christine of Saxony, children from this marriage:

Casimir (1477 - 1527)

Vladislav (1478-1495)

Frederick (1480 - 1554)

Alexander (1483 - 1565)

Barbara (1484 - 1554)

Sigismund (1488-1506)


Jan Albrecht (from 1492 - Grand Duke of Lithuania) in 1485 marries Kunigunde Habsburg (daughters of Frederick III), children from this marriage:

Sofia (1487 - 1504)

Jadwiga (1487 - 1562)

Casimir (1493 - 1549)

Frederick (1496 - 1546)

Kunigunda (1500 - 1542)


Alexander in 1477 marries Barbara Hohenzollern, and, thereby, through this marriage gets Glogov. Marriage remains childless.


Sigismund in 1482 marries Jadwig Cieszinski, children from this marriage:

Jan Sigismund (1486 - 1539)

Wojciech (1493 - 1527)

Barbara (1494 - 1516)

Magdalena (1499-1503)


The daughter of Casimir IV Barbara in 1493 marries Wilhelm II of Hesse, children from this marriage:

Philip (1495 - 1496)

Wilhelm (1496 - 1534)

Hermann (1497-1498)

Margarita (1498 - 1498)

Ernst (1499-1499)

Elizabeth (1501 - 1501)

Frederick (1502 - 1537)

Barbara (1503 - 1546)

Magdalena (1505 - 1533)

Catherine (1506 - 1509)


Since, as mentioned above, Christina of Saxony is marrying the Polish Prince Wladyslaw, the alternative marriage of Hans I, King of Denmark, whose wife Elizabeth will be Pomeranian, will be different, Elizabeth’s daughter will be the only child in this marriage, so in 1513 the Frederick I , which greatly changes the alignment of forces in Scandinavia (unlike the real Christian II, Frederick will not be the organizer of the Stockholm Bloodbath, and, therefore, there is no Gustav Vasa uprising that followed him, the union between Denmark and Sweden in this world will continue.


Curious will be the consequences for the house de Foix

Francis, the eldest son of Prince Vian and Bona of Savoy, who became king of Navarre in 1479, marries infanta Juana the Mad (thus, the thrones of Castile and Aragon in this world go to the house of de Foix, not to Habsburg), the offspring of Francis de Foix's marriage and Juana the Mad:

Eleanora (1496 - 1556)

Ferdinand (1498 - 1557)

Isabella (1499 - 1525)

Gaston (1501 - 1562)

Maria (1503 - 1556)

Anna (1505 - 1577)

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Welcome.

Few nitpicks. If Kasimir IV's kids have fewer thrones, I could see only the first two sons wedding (first St. Kasimir and Vlad, tben Vlad and @Jan Olbracht once St. Kasimir dies). One would be heir to Poland and one to Lithuania. Both having issue sill be big since it mean those crowns stay separate. Vlad as king of Poland might be bad. Although I can't make out if he WAS just a weak ruler or rather he just decided "well, what's the point?" having seen how more active rulers in Bohemia/Hungary had wound up.

Ladislaus surviving is a pretty damn cool POD and like most Hungarian PODs of the time (from the Arpad extinction and Louis d'Anjou to Mohàcs) can cause a massive butterfly storm.

Here's my thread on it if you're looking for thoughts.

 

[Jan Olbracht]

Both Vladislaus and Saint Casimir would be different men with their uncle still living. Vladislaus would not be send abroad as teenager (imagine such situation: you're 15 yo, you were given crown and lots of money while dad and mum are far away ) and Saint Casimir could be less devout (I've read his devotion increased after his failed campaign to get Hungarian throne in 1471) so he may live longer ITTL.
It would be interesting to see longer living Ladislas, who still dies childless, but as middle aged man, not as teenager. Whom would he like to see as his successor?

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

It would be interesting to see longer living Ladislas, who still dies childless, but as middle aged man, not as teenager. Whom would he like to see as his successor?

Interesting, maybe. But him having heirs and continuing the fraternal strife against Friedrich III's line could be fun

 

[Valena]

Rurik's love of looong genealogical schemes, which was a hallmark of fai.org.ru, strikes again.
Also, guys, meet fellow Belarusian historian on board

him having heirs and continuing the fraternal strife against Friedrich III's line could be fun

The whole point of this TL.
Also, as was discussed in the Russian thread on PoD, the result of Polish-Lithuanian butterflies of the PoD means that Glinski rebellion never happens, so Helena Glinskaya never gets to Moscow and the boy known to OTL as Ivan the Terrible is not born TTL (and in fact, given that Vasili III was rather stubborn about refusing to divorse his infertile wife, while at the same time not allowing his brothers to marry and produce heirs until he has one, we can face the main line Rurikid extinction and the throne going to Shuiski branch a century earlier than OTL; though, as was mentioned, this is rather implausible - facing the dynasty extinction he'll agree to divorse).

 

[Wendell]

Looking at Kellan Sullvan's thread on this, what if Ladislaus lives into adulthood, marries, but has no sons. Could he adopt Corvinus as his heir (in Hungary at least)?

 

[Germania09]

Overall I like what you’ve posted. And I’ll just throw my thoughts into it.

With the domestic I’m sure part of Ladislaus goals will involve eliminating the hunyadi clan once and for all. No doubt through executions of the remaining troublesome members and exile into monasteries/nunnneries where they can be watched as live out there lives in seclusion for the rest. I suspect Ladislaus will be less overbearing on the Nobility, as he’ll want to be a counterpoint to the arrogant Hunyadi’s though he will no doubt crush the nobles that had allied against him and tie the loyal lords to him through land gifts and the like, while his keeps the best parts for himself to strengthen his control. Army reform will be necessary as he’ll see a strong military paramount to securing his kingdom(s).

I would suspect that in order to tie court administrative functions for all the realms together Ladislaus makes the official court language throughout the realms Latin. Mostly due to the fact that it was like that already in Hungary and Ladislaus had declared that he considered himself a Hungarian. Plus it streamlines the language hurdle for such a large realm. Moreover he’ll need to travel a lot between all of his various realms so the road network between the capitals will need to be improved.

A war against the Ottomans will no doubt come to pass and no doubt turn the tide against their advance since Ladislaus would use it as a way to unite his various realms against a common enemy. No doubt he’d take the free areas of the Balkans under his protection and place Albania, Wallachia, etc. as vassals. Possibly his descendants integrates them all into the Triune Kingdom in the future.

When it comes to the Burgundian inheritance I would believe that Louis would have backed the Maximillian in return for either the rest of the Austrian inheritance, or a free hand elsewhere. Possibly in another war against the Ottomans to push them fully out of Europe entirely.

 

[Janprimus]

I like the idea, IMHO I'm not too sure Ladislaus' son would be called Louis, Charles, previous kings of Hungary and Bohemia, not to mention the legendary founder of the HRE, Charlemagne, besides the house of Valois still varied between a few French Royal names, so Louis was not as dominant as it ended up to be IOTL.

 

[Germania09]

I like the idea, IMHO I'm not too sure Ladislaus' son would be called Louis, Charles, previous kings of Hungary and Bohemia, not to mention the legendary founder of the HRE, Charlemagne, besides the house of Valois still varied between a few French Royal names, so Louis was not as dominant as it ended up to be IOTL.

I would think that Ladislaus would magyarize his children’s names.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

I would think that Ladislaus would magyarize his children’s names.

I'm not so sure he would necessarily Magyarize them as he might Germanize common Hungarian/Luxemburg royal names (Stephan, Andreas, Ludwig, Sigmund, Wenzel/Elisabeth (ipv Isabella, can't think of any other female royal names)). Especially given his own name.

The rivalry between the Albertine and Leopoldine lines could be fun to see. Likewise, that Saxony isn't split between Ernestine (electoral, at the time) and Albertine (ducal) branches, could make for an interesting development. Although they might simply split in the next generation(?).

I'm not sure if Bona winding up as Princess of Viana means much. She has a boatload of sisters or nieces who can take her place as duchess of Milan if the Sforzas still wanted a French match (although given Bona was raised by her sister, the queen of France, in Paris, once their mother died it might not have the same effect).

@Rurik for a replacement duchess of Saxony (i.e. wife INSTEAD OF Sidonie of Podiebrady) you could always use one of Bona's sisters. Charlotte of Savoy, OTL queen of France, was originally considered for a match with a prince of Saxony as a way of resolving some territorial dispute IIRC.

 

[Janprimus]

I'm not so sure he would necessarily Magyarize them as he might Germanize common Hungarian/Luxemburg royal names (Stephan, Andreas, Ludwig, Sigmund, Wenzel/Elisabeth (ipv Isabella, can't think of any other female royal names)). Especially given his own name.

The rivalry between the Albertine and Leopoldine lines could be fun to see. Likewise, that Saxony isn't split between Ernestine (electoral, at the time) and Albertine (ducal) branches, could make for an interesting development. Although they might simply split in the next generation(?).

I'm not sure if Bona winding up as Princess of Viana means much. She has a boatload of sisters or nieces who can take her place as duchess of Milan if the Sforzas still wanted a French match (although given Bona was raised by her sister, the queen of France, in Paris, once their mother died it might not have the same effect).

@Rurik for a replacement duchess of Saxony (i.e. wife INSTEAD OF Sidonie of Podiebrady) you could always use one of Bona's sisters. Charlotte of Savoy, OTL queen of France, was originally considered for a match with a prince of Saxony as a way of resolving some territorial dispute IIRC.

Another option, given his Valois wife, and previous kings of Hungary and Bohemia and of course the Holy Roman Empire, would be the name Charles. As for the rivalry between the branches Ladislaus and Frederick III were not a great match, maybe Ladislaus and Maximilian get along a bit better. IMHO they both would see that it is in the interest of their House and the Empire, that a member of their house gets the Burgundian Inheritance. ITTL it would mean that Maximilian and his descendants will rule from Brussels. Eventually IOTL Habsburg-Burgundy ended up with the Burgundian Netherlands, including originally French fiefs such as Flanders and Artois, but also Franche Comté and a French fief such as the county of Charolais (highly symbolic since it was the county given to the heir of the duke). ITTL, provided the branches protect the common interests of their House, moreover this would turn the interest of the Leopoldine branch to the West. IMHO I could see Habsburg-Burgundy keep Artois ITTL at expense of Charolais, maybe Maximilian is forced to cede additional Leopoldine lands to Ladislaus upon his succession, this IMHO most likely would entail Styria, Carinthia and Carniola AKA Inner Austria.

 

[Rurik]

I apologize in advance for the delay in starting the answers, I just don't speak English very well, so I need time to translate what I read and translate the answers

I will answer gradually, so I apologize in advance for the slow response rate

I will first say that with a remark on Silesia (about the absence of marriages in Casimir Polsky's younger children) I agree, besides, I looked, since two of the daughters of George Podebrada, who is not a Czech king, are free in this reality a major feudal lord in Silesia, and, accordingly, his daughters will be beneficial brides for other Silesian princes, then the changes in inheritance in Silesia will be significant

 

[Rurik]

I like the idea, IMHO I'm not too sure Ladislaus' son would be called Louis, Charles, previous kings of Hungary and Bohemia, not to mention the legendary founder of the HRE, Charlemagne, besides the house of Valois still varied between a few French Royal names, so Louis was not as dominant as it ended up to be IOTL.

I also thought about the variant with the name Charles, but in the end I stopped on the name of Louis, and here's why. The name of Ladislav himself was also completely atypical for the Habsburgs, as I understand it, he received it in honor of Saint Ladislav, the patron of Hungary, so we can assume that there was a tendency to symbolic names from the Albertine Habsburg line, so I thought that Ladislav's son would also get a symbolic name - this time in honor of the Hungarian King Louis the Great (by the way - as a result, a similar scenario happened in our reality - but already in the 16th century with Louis Jagiellon)

 

[Wendell]

I also thought about the variant with the name Charles, but in the end I stopped on the name of Louis, and here's why. The name of Ladislav himself was also completely atypical for the Habsburgs, as I understand it, he received it in honor of Saint Ladislav, the patron of Hungary, so we can assume that there was a tendency to symbolic names from the Albertine Habsburg line, so I thought that Ladislav's son would also get a symbolic name - this time in honor of the Hungarian King Louis the Great (by the way - as a result, a similar scenario happened in our reality - but already in the 16th century with Louis Jagiellon)

Louis is plausible given, Hungary, but given both Hungary AND Bohemia, where Ladislaus (Lazslo/Vladislav) are more common, Charles does make more sense, as both have had well-regarded men whose name in English would be Charles occupy their thrones. .

 

[isabella]

I also thought about the variant with the name Charles, but in the end I stopped on the name of Louis, and here's why. The name of Ladislav himself was also completely atypical for the Habsburgs, as I understand it, he received it in honor of Saint Ladislav, the patron of Hungary, so we can assume that there was a tendency to symbolic names from the Albertine Habsburg line, so I thought that Ladislav's son would also get a symbolic name - this time in honor of the Hungarian King Louis the Great (by the way - as a result, a similar scenario happened in our reality - but already in the 16th century with Louis Jagiellon)

Louis is plausible given, Hungary, but given both Hungary AND Bohemia, where Ladislaus (Lazslo/Vladislav) are more common, Charles does make more sense, as both have had well-regarded men whose name in English would be Charles occupy their thrones. .

Stephen/Istvan or Rudolph also can be very symbolic names (after the Saint King of Hungary and the founder of the Habsburg dynasty respectively)

 

[Rurik]

I liked very many ideas! Probably, I will slightly correct the years of the life of Ladislav (let's say, add him another five years, that is, until 1475), in order to implement some of the ideas voiced here (including about names)

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

I liked very many ideas! Probably, I will slightly correct the years of the life of Ladislav (let's say, add him another five years, that is, until 1475), in order to implement some of the ideas voiced here (including about names)

I was looking for other possible brides for Albrecht of Saxony (I know I suggested a princess of Savoy above), and found the two daughters of Wilhelm der Tapfere, landgrave of Thuringia and sometime duke of Luxemburg by right of his wife, Anna of Austria (Ladislaus the Posthumous' sister). The elder one, Margarethe married the elector of Brandenburg (Johann Cicero), while the younger, Katharina, wed Georg of Podebrady's son, Jindrich. Since Georg never becomes king of Bohemia here, his OTL daughter-in-law can become electress of Brandenburg while Margarethe marries Albrecht and carries whatever Thuringian lands the Hohenzollerns hoped to gain through the match, into the Albertine branch.