If Israel Was Around During World War II....

Soundgarden

Banned
While the Holocaust sped up the creation of a Jewish State, there were movements for one as far back as the 1900s with Theodor Herzl as a founding member of the push for Zionism.

Lets say the Independant State of Israel formed earlier(lets just say between the World Wars) how would that have an effect on the second World War?

An obvious one that springs to mind would be a convienant outing for the Jews to escape Nazi persecution, even before the Holocaust got started. Jews did emigrate there in smaller numbers at the beginning of Hitler's reign(via forced), so I can picture them doing it at a faster rate.

Plus, the Jewish state would be a huge component in WW2. It would have to fight its Arab neighbors, as well as Nazi Germany, which can change the dynamics of the war.

The big question is, how would Israel form? We do know that the reason it formed in 1948 was because of the United States sympathy of the Holocaust, so for it to happen at an earlier date, it would need support from a major nation.

Perhaps the UK can provide support for the Jewish State by helping it with agriculture and resources, since the land was British ruled.

Nevertheless, what role would Israel play during World War 2?
 

mowque

Banned
It would get a huge influx of Jews from Germany before the war. Afterwards...well, it wouldn't do much although it would probably join in after the Allies starting winning.
 
The Nazis decide to move all their jews there early on, as the war goes on and the numbers of jews increase the death toll rises until it becomes too much of an effort and the leaderships gets crazier so they just start killing them all.

Probably a lower over all death toll but still a pretty awful experience.
 

Hoist40

Banned
Plus, the Jewish state would be a huge component in WW2. It would have to fight its Arab neighbors, as well as Nazi Germany, which can change the dynamics of the war.
Germany never got as far a present day Israel and Israel's Arab neighbors were still under the control of Britain and France

The big question is, how would Israel form? We do know that the reason it formed in 1948 was because of the United States sympathy of the Holocaust, so for it to happen at an earlier date, it would need support from a major nation.
The Soviet Union was the first to recognize Israel. It also supported arms being sent to Israel from Eastern Europe. Early Israel was very socialist.
 
Well, the area was British ruled at the time, so it would more than likely be Britain that is supporting Israel, rather than the US, which IIRC, preferred isolation between the wars.

Plus, the fact that the rest of the land surrounding Israel is controlled by Britain or France, there isn't likely to be a war between Israel and the Arab states. Just checked, and the major ones, Jordan and Syria were formed after WW1 when the allies took control of the previous Ottoman holdings. As such, if Israel is founded at the same time, there would probably not be a war.


As pointed out, a Jewish nation would, more than likely result in increased Jewish migration from Europe, especially Germany, to Israel during the 1930's, thus lowering the number of dead from the Holocaust.

During the war, it is likely that Israel would be able to support Egypt and Greece far easier than Britain could (shorter supply routes, safer supply routes etc). As such it is likely that Axis north Africa falls far more quickly, thus allowing a redeployment of British forces elsewhere, and it is likely that Greece would take longer to fall - more forces available etc - it will more than likely fall anyway, but it would take longer and be more costly for the Germans.
 
It reduces the numbers of German (includes Grossdeutschland) Jews killed as they can emigrate there early on. It doesn't do much for Jews in occupied countries since by then RN will prevent German shipping.

Israel could form some sort of state run fund used to pay exit visas required for Jews but who couldn't afford them. Of course the question is what kind of economy Israel has.
 
I doubt Hitler would have carried out the Holocaust at all. I've read that the Nazis were OK with a Jewish state being formed, on the ideology of "let's just get rid of them and let them have that piece of godforsaken desert". They even let some German Jews who emigrated to Palestine in the 1930s to take their property with them. Plus, it was much more economically viable and manpower-conserving to expel them rather than exterminate them.

I think that all the Jews of occupied Europe would be expelled from their homes as a way to nudge them out into Israel. But there wouldn't be nearly as many left. For one thing, Zionism was strong among Poland's 3.3 million-strong Jewish community, and many would be already gone. Large numbers would have also left from other European nations.

In addition, Israel would be dealing with an influx of Jews from Arab lands, so to be honest, I doubt it would join the Allies; it would be dealing with absorbing millions of people, and it could not afford pissing of the Germans in case they stopped Jewish immigration from occupied Europe as punishment.
 
I doubt Hitler would have carried out the Holocaust at all. I've read that the Nazis were OK with a Jewish state being formed, on the ideology of "let's just get rid of them and let them have that piece of godforsaken desert". They even let some German Jews who emigrated to Palestine in the 1930s to take their property with them. Plus, it was much more economically viable and manpower-conserving to expel them rather than exterminate them.

I think that all the Jews of occupied Europe would be expelled from their homes as a way to nudge them out into Israel. But there wouldn't be nearly as many left. For one thing, Zionism was strong among Poland's 3.3 million-strong Jewish community, and many would be already gone. Large numbers would have also left from other European nations.

In addition, Israel would be dealing with an influx of Jews from Arab lands, so to be honest, I doubt it would join the Allies; it would be dealing with absorbing millions of people, and it could not afford pissing of the Germans in case they stopped Jewish immigration from occupied Europe as punishment.

And how are they going to get from Poland to Israel? It's not as if RN will just let German navy sail hither & yon. Until June 1940 Italy could serve as conduit but once Italy enters the war that option is gone as well. Other neutral-but-pro-axis countries could do it but by then I suspect RN will be doing something about that as well.
 
IIRC, there was a plan for the Nazi's to ship all the jews to Madagascar before the war started. It was only after the war started that the Nazi's started the Final Solution.
 
IIRC, there was a plan for the Nazi's to ship all the jews to Madagascar before the war started. It was only after the war started that the Nazi's started the Final Solution.

The Madagascar Plan was basically an alternative way to wipe out Europe's Jews. No way in hell 9 million people would have survived being crammed onto ships and dumped on some disease-ridden tropical island that couldn't support any more than an extremely tiny fraction of that number of people.

It was basically another way to just kill all the Jews, and the Nazis knew this.
 

Deleted member 1487

And how are they going to get from Poland to Israel? It's not as if RN will just let German navy sail hither & yon. Until June 1940 Italy could serve as conduit but once Italy enters the war that option is gone as well. Other neutral-but-pro-axis countries could do it but by then I suspect RN will be doing something about that as well.

Turkey and Syria could be conduits. IIRC the British weren't interdicting Vichy shipping in the Mediterranean to Syria. They could ship in Jews wanting to leave and let they cross the border; if not then they can migrate to Turkey and in a deal worked out with the Germans help ship them to Syria so they could make the trip by land. I don't know if Bulgaria would want to do something similar with their shipping or even if they could.
 

katchen

Banned
Israel apparently actually came very close to unilaterally declaring it's independence from Great Britain in 1940, right around the time of Dunkirk before the British reinforced Egypt. And according to a book I am reading, they would have had France's support (and probably later, the support of the Soviet Union) in doing so).

There were 350,000 Jews in Palestine at the time. Syria was not yet indpendent and still unde rFrance. So basically, the Haganah would have had to worry about would have been the British armed Arab Legion in Transjordan, which was rather small, British troops in country, (which were needed to defend the UK against the Nazis) and perhaps Egyptian and Iraqi troops. And Palestinian Arab irregulars. It would have been doable, especially if arms as well as Jews flowed in from France and the USSR.

Of course the USSR would very likely have insisted on a Communist and USSR aligned government for Israel as a price for it's aid. It would mean Israelis making sure that Communist Free French took over in Syria after the Nazi invasion of the USSR so that the USSR could transport Jewish refugees across Syria to Israel and that a Soviet dominated Syrian government would accept and resettle Palestinian Arabs expelled from Israel. (Yes, Israel would have Russia's permission to transfer Palestinian Arabs since the USSR is at the same time doing the same thing on an even more massive scale--shifting millions of Poles West out of the Ukraine and Belarus into Silesia, Pomerania and East Prussia which are being vacated of Germans).

For it's part, the USSR will not be giving those of it's citizens with Jewish internal passports a choice about whether they want to move to Israel any more than they will be giving their Ukrainian Polish citizens a choice about moving to the new borders of Poland or it's Volksdeutsch the choice about resettling in the Eastern Zone of occupied Germany. So Israel will gain a population of three million no matter how many or few are saved from Hitler's death camps and go to Israel or who go to places liek the US at the end of the War instead.

Wnd Israel will likely be much larger, too. Jordan would be butterflied away ITTL, since Israel would declare itself on BOTH sides of the Jordan as per the original British Mandate and have to defeat the Arab Legion of Transjordan and the Emirate of Transjordan in any case. And while Israel would not gain any territory from Syria or Lebanon, it would likely gain much of the Sinai as well as much near vacant desert territory in Midian Southeast of the Gulf of Aqaba and east of Jordan, perhaps all the way to rutba in Iraq and halfway to Medina in Saudi Arabia including the uninhabited Nafud and Syrian deerts as buffer zones. for strategic reasons, particularly if the Soviet Union dominated Iraq and Iran as well as Syria and Israel, which ITTL, they could. Israel could be a lovely excuse for a Russian Mideast presence. during and after WWII.

Which would make life very hard for Jews in the West. Jews in Europe and the US would still have to cope with Anti-Semitism as well as charges of dual loyalty. There might well still be widespread discrimination in the US. which ITTL could butterfly into opposition for expansion of civil rights for African-Americans as well...:mad: Not a pretty picture.
 
Since Israel's neighbors ITTL are British and French colonies, it does not have a violent birth.I think it would build a military to help the British in World War II.
 

Soundgarden

Banned
What people are forgetting is The Grand Motif of Jerusalem was anti-semitic on Nazi-esque levels, and even had a waffen SS division to get rid of them. One thing you got to remember, there was always war in the Middle East, its just with the creation of a Jewish State, all the Arab lands convienantly formed together to take them out, because you know what they say "An enemy of an enemy is a friend of mine."
 

elkarlo

Banned
Not sure what Israel could do. Not even take in all the refugees. As it would have been poor and non industrialized without tons of subsidies, and hand outs. WOnder how many Jews they could take in?
 

katchen

Banned
I haven't forgotten Haj Amin el Husseni. Behind him was Britain (and Saudi Arabia's) master spy Jack Philby (Kim Philby's father). See "The Secret War Against the Jews" by Mark Aarons & John Loftus. And behind Jack Philby was King Abd al Aziz ibn Saud, King of Saudi Arabia.

Jack Philby and Haj Amin el Husseni worked very hard to organize a Palestinian Arab community in opposition to Jewish settlement in Palestine from 1918 until 1941. And it was in 1941 that Haj Amin el Husseni, finally tipped off that he would be arrested for collaboration with the Nazis, fled to Nazi Germany where he lobbied, quite effectively apparently, for the Final Solution.:mad:
 
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