If hitler never invaded France or Britain

This has been something that I am wondering about and the more I think about it, the stupider the question seems. But im asking anyway
What if Hitler didnt even care about France or England at all. after Poland, he just prepared to go east. Not west. Could an alliance with the allys ever be considered
Now I know that after Poland that the France and Britain declared war against Germany. And Hitler took that as a green light to go west and invade France. But what if he didnt. He just fortified his French border and made it clear that he had no intention of war with them. he only wanted to destroy the USSR
One of the great ironies of the war is that Churchill pretty much agreed with Hitler about communism and that was made very clear after the war
So did FRD and most of the american and British public. So it does seem possible
But after Poland, things seem to be set no matter how the allies felt about Stalin and the Soviet Union
That seems stupid
What if Hitler didnt strike London, if he didnt invade and crush France. If he just prepared for the invasion of the Soviet union in 1939 and went ahead with that as early as possible and not caught in the winter
Would france and England invaded from the west, did any of them have the manpower to consider that without the USA
 

nbcman

Donor
How would the Germans attack the SU in 1939 with the Poles and the Baltic Stares in the way? And with what fuel, food and raw materials?
 

Philip

Donor
Why would any nation ever trust the UK again? Chamberlain gave away Czechoslovakia. Churchill gave away Poland.
 
Why would any nation ever trust the UK again? Chamberlain gave away Czechoslovakia. Churchill gave away Poland.

In September 1939 Churchill wasnt in power he would have nothing to do with any deal over Poland.

Why would the UK get all the blame for any appeasement deal, it was the junior partner in the anti German alliance where central Europe was concerned France with an Army 10 times the size of the UK was the senior partner.
 
What if Hitler didnt even care about France
France with an Army 10 times the size of the UK
This is kind of the answer to the OP. Hitler's geo-strategic conception was ultimately to build a Greater German Reich in the East to turn Germany into a superpower capable of being a peer opponent to the US/UK alliance.
He just fortified his French border and made it clear that he had no intention of war with them. he only wanted to destroy the USSR
Not quite. He did not want war with the West immediately, but knew an existential war against the US/UK was ultimately inevitable - he was right about that, though for the wrong reason (viz. the Global Jewish Conspiracy Against Germany). So he envisaged four wars in succession (Adam Tooze is very good on this) - first against Poland (to clear the decks and provide the jumping-off point for the Drang Nach Osten), second against France (to break French power and prevent the risk of a backstab while Germany was busy in the East), third against the USSR (to destroy one branch of the aforementioned GJCAG, and give Germany the resources, especially oil, needed to build up a vast aero-naval war machine in order to fight the West) and fourth against the US/ UK (which would have been so to speak the 'real war' to which all the others were preludes; CalBear's AANW TL is the sort of thing here, and it would have been even vaster and grimmer than the OTL WW2).
So to summarise, Hitler's demented dreams in the East could not come true until France was neutralised. We should not assume that the inaction of the French army in 1939-40 would have lasted indefinitely. The Allies planned to build up a mechanised war machine using their superior economic power (David Edgerton is very good on this) and take the offensive from 1941 onwards. Germany had to win big against France in 1940 or it was game over for Hitler's plans. Hitler, remember, had been on the Western Front in 1914-18 (& so had many of the German generals) in which France had been a very dangerous & effective opponent. No-one in high places in Germany thought of France as a pushover.
If we extend the thought experiment, if the German army had gone East in summer 1940 or anytime in 1941, the result would have been a vast ongoing Eastern campaign in 1941 (even if things went well for Germany) just as France & Britain launched a major offensive in the West (see the magnificent Blunted Sickle TL by pdf27 for how such an offensive might have gone; the scenario is different but the point remains valid). That was the prospect the Germans (the Army as well as Hitler) wanted to avoid at all costs - essentially a replay of WW1.
 
At work.

Just a question from an unlearned lay-man here....

But...

What if Hitler ignores Poland. Drives hard for a political take over of all of Yugoslavia (I think I have the right Southern country after Austria) then, while building up harbours, ship yards to influence the Med, causes yet more turmoil in Romania. Thereby allowing an assault more from a Southern flank into Russia?

Or such an assault to come over the "We avenge you" rubble of Romania? If politics can get the Russian or some other spark to have beligerants kick hostilities off?

Edit: Heck. What if Hitler even signs the Ribbentrop thing but still works his machinations as I've just described such that while Russia is attacking Poland from the agreed date. Germany is now standing back with a "Hey! I wasn't us that started it!" posture, all.the while going at Russia through/with Romania.

Does this mean the Brits and French throw in with the Poles against the Russians along side the Germans/Romanians?

Just a thought. Looking forwards to learning more.
 
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1) More German activity in Yugoslavia is going to annoy Italy.
2) No way in hell was Stalin going to authorize an unprovoked attack on Poland. Stalin needed to be able to say, "See, we're just securing the area from German aggression" or nothing was going to happen.
 
At work.

1) More German activity in Yugoslavia is going to annoy Italy.
2) No way in hell was Stalin going to authorize an unprovoked attack on Poland. Stalin needed to be able to say, "See, we're just securing the area from German aggression" or nothing was going to happen.

*Nods*

Okay... but, as for 1, so what? Does Italy really appear to have the strength... or anything to otherwise jyst get huffy towards Germany?

In regards to 2. Just how 'Set' were boths side (Germany and Russia) in their preparations for engaging Poland?

Just how concrete and firm were any dates?

Which leads to "Just how flexible were the Command and Control" of the respective Russian and German forces?

I gather, after the Ribbentrop is signed that both Germany and Russia began building up for the agreed kick off.

But... were German signals/Command structure effective enough that the high command could enforce a 'Wait'/'Hold' order after the agreed attack date?

How does the Russian command at this time compare? Could they also do the same thing of not attacking past the agreed date.


Thanks for the feedback. :)
 
How about Russia attacks on the same day as Germany

Britain and France pause at declaring war on both or just one and instead simply impose heavy sanctions

So a sort of grumpy cold war exists for the next year or so

It's like an idea only smaller
 
Okay... but, as for 1, so what? Does Italy really appear to have the strength... or anything to otherwise jyst get huffy towards Germany?

Not that much, but there are two factors to consider:
  1. Nobody knows the Italian army is a paper tiger in 1939
  2. It would push Italy straight into the arms of the allies
 
Not that much, but there are two factors to consider:
  1. Nobody knows the Italian army is a paper tiger in 1939
  2. It would push Italy straight into the arms of the allies
Ah, yeah. *Nods* Italy goes 'Netural', kind of like Spain, and the Germans have a Southern front they now have to watch/protect.
 
Ah, yeah. *Nods* Italy goes 'Netural', kind of like Spain, and the Germans have a Southern front they now have to watch/protect.

& as Livius commented, no one understood how weak the Italian Army was. Or its air force for that matter. Related to this was the Italian Army of 1939 was designed to fight on the north Italian frontiers, Austrian and Yugoslavia. This obviates much of the crippling logistical handicap of the armies on the Egyptian frontier, or attacking Greece out of Albania.
 
This has been something that I am wondering about and the more I think about it, the stupider the question seems. But im asking anyway
What if Hitler didnt even care about France or England at all. after Poland, he just prepared to go east. Not west. Could an alliance with the allys ever be considered
Now I know that after Poland that the France and Britain declared war against Germany. And Hitler took that as a green light to go west and invade France. But what if he didnt. He just fortified his French border and made it clear that he had no intention of war with them. he only wanted to destroy the USSR

The problem was, they still had a score to settle with France. Although they didn't originally meant to go West, the Allies declaring war on them and doing exactly the same thing they did in WWI forced the nazis to act upon it before they could feel comfortatable attacking the USSR, trying to make sure not to make the same mistakes as in WWI. Its just that the Nazis thought they had a brilliant plan to kock both countries out of the war quickly so they could refocus on the USSR again. Well, they succeeded partially. But by then there was no turning back, for Hitler especially who just absolutely had to destroy Russia, even though the british were still fighting and things were starting to go wrong left and right.
 
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