If Germany won WW1 will there still be a Soviet Union

Alot of authors, Turtledove included have speculated on this, I myself am not sure but could there still be a USSR if Germany won the Great War.
 
it depends on how strong post-war Germany is... because if signing the ToB-L the Kaiser will control the Baltic nations, Byelarus and Ukraine.. and Germany would probably intervene in the Civil war to try and stop the Communists.

it could happen either way, either the Germans crush the Soviet Union along with the Russians or the intervention forces are defeated and the SU still forms, albeit differently than IOTL.
 
Yes, the Czar was already dead and the Soviets in power by the time of the armistice. Thats one of the reasons they weren't invited to Versaille. (another being that they had "surrendered" to Germany already in the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk (sp?)
 
Interesting arguments but I think CDruham has a point, I've been studying the revolution and civil war and his sounds the most plausible.
 

Neroon

Banned
Depends on how and when the CPs win.
If Germany wins an early victory, say after campaigning season 1915 then i think the Tsarist gouvernement will survive even without German help especially if the peace treaty isn't too harsh.
A Germany win scenario in 1918/1919 with a "US neutral - stalemate in the west scenario" Germany would be nowhere strong enough to intervene stongly enough to change the outcome of the Civil War.
For a scenario where the Tsar still might fall and Germany just might be strong enough to tip the scales in the Civil War a "Brusilov killed early" scenario with the Tsar throwing the towel in late 1916 or early 1917 does the trick IMO. In this situation it's who gets the more favourible wind for their butterflies :) .
 
Yes, the Czar was already dead and the Soviets in power by the time of the armistice. Thats one of the reasons they weren't invited to Versaille. (another being that they had "surrendered" to Germany already in the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk (sp?)

While the Tsar is dead and there is a Soviet government in Moscow, the Russian Civil War was still in full swing at the time the Versailles Treaty was being written up. I would imagine at least part of the reason for the lack of Russian participation was the fact that the Allies would have to decide which Russians to invite. Inviting the Soviets while most of the Allies are helping to supply the White Army would hardly work, and the Whites are much too factionalized to agree on a single agenda for Versailles.

As Neroon said, how much Germany is willing to intervene in the Russian Civil War will largely depend on how drained the Germans are from World War I; after four long years of trench warfare the populace will hardly want to get involved in another war, especially intervening in another country's civil war. However even if the Germans have are fairly exhausted the Central Powers would probably at least provide the Whites with logistical support in the form of their large surplus of military hardware and supplies. The Whites might also be allowed staging grounds within Belarus and Ukraine; unlike the largely seaborne Allied intervention of OTL, the Central Powers have a large land border with Russia.

The fact that areas like Ukraine, Poland, and the Baltics are under the control of the Central Powers is probably going to have a major effect on the course of the war as well, given that this closes off some of the more important areas of fighting in OTL. The Basmachi Revolt in Central Asia would likely receive far more external support with the Ottoman Empire intact, possibly enough that the Soviets would be unable to hold the region. Assuming the Soviets do win this altered Russian Civil War, the White emigre movement would also likely be changed in some way.
 
As Neroon said, how much Germany is willing to intervene in the Russian Civil War will largely depend on how drained the Germans are from World War I; after four long years of trench warfare the populace will hardly want to get involved in another war, especially intervening in another country's civil war. However even if the Germans have are fairly exhausted the Central Powers would probably at least provide the Whites with logistical support in the form of their large surplus of military hardware and supplies.

But the Whites received foreign aid OTL as well, no?
 

MrP

Banned
But the Whites received foreign aid OTL as well, no?

There was at least a battalion (possible a division, I forget) of British troops up around Vladivostok post-WWI, IIRC. And armoured cars, guns and so on* made their way into the hands of the Whites we supported.

* A few tanks, too. From France, at least.
 

Nietzsche

Banned
Why would Germany support a former enemy, when they sent Lenin into Russia to collapse their Empire? I think that the Soviet Union(a much weaker one, mind you) and the German Empire could get along quite well, putting aside their idealogical differences(or atleast most of them).
 
Even a weaker SU would not want to have too good of relations with a monarchy.

And the Germans only wanted Lenin to cause trouble, not actually overthrow the government and put up a Marxist nation in its place. A monarchy in Russia, even a Republic, the Kaiser could easily deal with.
 
But the Whites received foreign aid OTL as well, no?

They did receive aid in OTL, mostly from France, Britain, and Japan IIRC. I would assume in a CP victorious world Japan's aid is probably not changed much from OTL since Japanese ambitions for controlling the Russian Far East would still be in place and the the CP are unlikely to have done any damage to Japan with their victory. Undoubtably the Central Powers will give a different amount of aid than the rest of the Allies did, and will probably distribute it differentely, which will have an effect upon the course of the war.

Why would Germany support a former enemy, when they sent Lenin into Russia to collapse their Empire? I think that the Soviet Union(a much weaker one, mind you) and the German Empire could get along quite well, putting aside their idealogical differences(or atleast most of them).

The Germans were no fonder of Communism than any other European monarchy, but they were pragmatic enough to understand that helping Lenin undermine the Russian Empire would aid the German war effort; IIRC the Germans did not expect Lenin to be nearly so successful as he was, and were rather horrified by the execution of the Tsar and his family. Besides, encouraging a long and bloody civil war which will keep Russia weak and divided is in Germany's interests.
 
It is quite possible that if Germany had won WW1 it might have very well have added the White forces and destroyed the Red army. The Kaiser was quite unhappy that cousin Nickie was killed as was his British Cousin. It might very well be that the Soviet Union was stillborn and its leaders executed.
 
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