If Germany wins WWI, would Mitteleuropa have had a brain drain?

CaliGuy

Banned
If Germany wins WWI, would Mitteleuropa have had a brain drain?

Basically, I am not thinking of large-scale immigration from Mitteleuropa to Germany proper here; rather, I am thinking of Germany actively looking throughout Mitteleuropa for talented and potentially talented people and encouraging them to immigrate to Germany. Indeed, the purpose of such German moves would be to strengthen Germany as well as both the German economy (through increased innovation) and the German military (through increased technological development in the military sphere).

Anyway, does this seem realistic? Indeed, does a post-World War I primitive German version of our TL's Operation Paperclip sound plausible?

Any thoughts on this?
 
Was there a significant brain drain in this timespan IOTL of talented individuals in French or Belgian colonies heading toward Europe? If not, is there any reason to believe that Germany would be more proactive in trying to attract such individuals to Europe in a world where they conquered those colonies?
 

CaliGuy

Banned
Was there a significant brain drain in this timespan IOTL of talented individuals in French or Belgian colonies heading toward Europe?

Not that I know of; however, please keep in mind that people in European colonies generally weren't White and that racism was a much bigger issue and problem back then.

If not, is there any reason to believe that Germany would be more proactive in trying to attract such individuals to Europe in a world where they conquered those colonies?

Well, for one, the people in Eastern Europe would be White (something which might be relevant for European racists during this time). In addition to this, Germany would have to deal with the threat posed by Russia--especially over the long(er)-run. Also, the sheer scale of the talent in Mitteleuropa might be greater than the talent in Europe's colonies; indeed, Jewish overrepresentation (due to their excellent performance) was already an issue even in Tsarist Russia to the point that they put quotas on Jewish enrollment at universities!
 

CaliGuy

Banned
Also, for the record, I am thinking of the entire last 100 years here; indeed, over the last several decades, there actually does appear to have been a brain drain from many Third World countries (though, again, Eastern Europe isn't and wouldn't be Third World in this TL).
 
If Germany is going to be the wealthy and developed centre of an integrated Mitteleuropa, then it seems inevitable that it will become the destination of substantial immigration from its poorer partners/satellites. (This, incidentally, would include Austria-Hungary.) This would include skilled and unskilled immigration both.
 
Also, for the record, I am thinking of the entire last 100 years here; indeed, over the last several decades, there actually does appear to have been a brain drain from many Third World countries (though, again, Eastern Europe isn't and wouldn't be Third World in this TL).

In order for that to happen, the infrastructure for creating people with certain qualifications has to exist. For example, the first university in Cameroon was established in Yaoundé in 1962. What causes brain drain IMO is simply the people with those qualifications not being able to find jobs or pursue further studies -- and you need to be able to train those people in the first place. Now, Eastern Europe had that infrastructure. Poland has several very good universities, as do many of the other Eastern European countries. Following a German victory in WW1 and the foundation of a Mitteleuropa, German would undoubtedly become the prestige language of academia in Europe, and the best students would migrate to Germany, much the same way as the best students today often want to study in the developed English-speaking countries.

A numerus clausus ('closed number' [of Jewish students allowed into a university]) would most probably have existed across Mitteleuropa; Poland and Hungary had limits in the interwar period, Russia had limits pre-revolution, and so on. IOTL the percentage was usually set at the percentage of Jewish people in the overall population. ITTL, that means that many Jewish students would migrate (by virtue of being admitted somewhere) to areas of Mitteleuropa where the local Jewish population was relatively small. So you'd see people migrating out of Poland and Berlin to other areas.
 

Deleted member 1487

It depends on what German immigration policy would be, but pre- and post-war IOTL they allowed a fair bit of immigration from the East. I could see an intellectual colonization program like what the US and the USSR did during the Cold War, which allowed foreigns students to study at their universities and return home afterwards to carry the values of the alliance leaders with them. So it might not be a drain as much as a education process to bring in people to be educated and carry back with them 'Germanic values'. If they are trustworthy to stay and want to they might well be allowed to.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
If Germany is going to be the wealthy and developed centre of an integrated Mitteleuropa, then it seems inevitable that it will become the destination of substantial immigration from its poorer partners/satellites. (This, incidentally, would include Austria-Hungary.) This would include skilled and unskilled immigration both.
I agree with this--especially once things such as cheap land won't be as important to emigrants from Mitteleuropa. However, I suspect that--at least in the early years after a German WWI victory--German workers might resent large-scale low-skilled immigration from Mitteleuropa (and from elsewhere, of course) due to their fear that this will drive down wages in Germany.

In order for that to happen, the infrastructure for creating people with certain qualifications has to exist. For example, the first university in Cameroon was established in Yaoundé in 1962. What causes brain drain IMO is simply the people with those qualifications not being able to find jobs or pursue further studies -- and you need to be able to train those people in the first place. Now, Eastern Europe had that infrastructure. Poland has several very good universities, as do many of the other Eastern European countries. Following a German victory in WW1 and the foundation of a Mitteleuropa, German would undoubtedly become the prestige language of academia in Europe, and the best students would migrate to Germany, much the same way as the best students today often want to study in the developed English-speaking countries.

A numerus clausus ('closed number' [of Jewish students allowed into a university]) would most probably have existed across Mitteleuropa; Poland and Hungary had limits in the interwar period, Russia had limits pre-revolution, and so on. IOTL the percentage was usually set at the percentage of Jewish people in the overall population. ITTL, that means that many Jewish students would migrate (by virtue of being admitted somewhere) to areas of Mitteleuropa where the local Jewish population was relatively small. So you'd see people migrating out of Poland and Berlin to other areas.
Did Imperial Germany itself have Jewish quotas in its universities, though?

It depends on what German immigration policy would be, but pre- and post-war IOTL they allowed a fair bit of immigration from the East. I could see an intellectual colonization program like what the US and the USSR did during the Cold War, which allowed foreigns students to study at their universities and return home afterwards to carry the values of the alliance leaders with them. So it might not be a drain as much as a education process to bring in people to be educated and carry back with them 'Germanic values'. If they are trustworthy to stay and want to they might well be allowed to.

I agree that some of the foreigners who will study in Germany will then return home and try shaping their countries more to Germany's liking. Indeed, these foreigners would probably be aspiring politicians, civil servants, et cetera. However, I suspect that aspiring scientists, engineers, et cetera might have a greater purpose if they stayed in Germany rather than moved back home. After all, Germany would surely need to strengthen its military in order to help protect it from the threat that Russia will pose in the future.
 
I agree with this--especially once things such as cheap land won't be as important to emigrants from Mitteleuropa. However, I suspect that--at least in the early years after a German WWI victory--German workers might resent large-scale low-skilled immigration from Mitteleuropa (and from elsewhere, of course) due to their fear that this will drive down wages in Germany.

They might, but I would be skeptical if this would lead to change. Germany can hardly engage in a Brexit-like secession from the bloc that it dominates.

I agree that some of the foreigners who will study in Germany will then return home and try shaping their countries more to Germany's liking. Indeed, these foreigners would probably be aspiring politicians, civil servants, et cetera. However, I suspect that aspiring scientists, engineers, et cetera might have a greater purpose if they stayed in Germany rather than moved back home. After all, Germany would surely need to strengthen its military in order to help protect it from the threat that Russia will pose in the future.

More to the point, a relatively wealthy and advanced Germany with a population approaching the hundred million mark will offer vistas unavailable to even the larger of the other nations. Even the Poles would not be able to compare.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
They might, but I would be skeptical if this would lead to change. Germany can hardly engage in a Brexit-like secession from the bloc that it dominates.

True, but Germany can delay things such as freedom of movement for a long time if it dislikes this idea.

More to the point, a relatively wealthy and advanced Germany with a population approaching the hundred million mark will offer vistas unavailable to even the larger of the other nations. Even the Poles would not be able to compare.

Vistas or visas?
 
Germany was the absolute scientific powerhouse bar none in the early 20th century, right up until the Nazis came and screwed things up. German scientists until 1934 or so raked in more Nobel Prizes than all other countries combined. German, not English, was the language of science. With no anti-Semitic policies and an expanded population and influence base, I see no reason why anything should change. So there would likely be significant educational migration to German universities and technical universities from Mitteleuropa, and resulting strong influence on the central European countries by way of the German educated academics.
 
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