If England stayed Catholic what would relations with Irish be like?

[LouisTheGreyFox]

The question is not how England stayed Catholic, the question is if England remained apart of the Catholic Church then how would relations between the English and Irish be like then?

Me I would think there would be a bit of disputes towards Irish still, but I think overtime it would become friendly by the 20th century.

 

[Ditzy Vixen (RossN)]

Probably very different and Ireland would be at least as changed as Britain.

At a minimum the religious question eventually helped push the native Irish and 'Old English' together into an eventual merged Catholic Irish identity. That might have happened anyway but it would certainly have taken longer.

 

[TruthfulPanda]

Probably very different and Ireland would be at least as changed as Britain.

At a minimum the religious question eventually helped push the native Irish and 'Old English' together into an eventual merged Catholic Irish identity. That might have happened anyway but it would certainly have taken longer.

And part of a broader British polity ... ?

 

[DG Valdron]

I doubt it. Brutality has its own relentless logic.

 

[The Professor]

I doubt it. Brutality has its own relentless logic.

Would brutality have occurred if identity hadn't fused so much around religion?
Compare Wales and Scotland where a non English but British identity still survives even if currently under siege.

 

[A Most Sovereign Lady]

The English attempts to subjugate the Irish predate their abandonment of Roman Catholicism, not much would change.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Actually, the Irish might well convert to protestantism if England stays RC

 

[VVD0D95]

Actually, the Irish might well convert to protestantism if England stays RC

How so? The Irish at this point from what I can tell were still quite devoted to Rome. They only objected to English presence there, and if someone points out the Pope gave Ireland to the English, then what are they going to do?

 

[DG Valdron]

Would brutality have occurred if identity hadn't fused so much around religion?
Compare Wales and Scotland where a non English but British identity still survives even if currently under siege.

Because the world only has three principles.
1) There isn't enough for everyone;
2) Screw you, I got mine;
3) Now I want more, so fuck you.

That's the entire history of the human race. Maybe not every bit, but that's what it comes down to, again and again.
The Irish.... pretty screwed.

 

[Fabius Maximus]

Mary Tudor stepped up the English conquest of Ireland IOTL, so probably the country still gets taken over as per OTL. Afterwards, however, things might well be different; even IOTL Ireland was pretty thoroughly Anglicised, and without religious differences and the memory of things like the Protestant Ascendancy, Irish nationalism might well be a less potent force than it was historically.

Of course, one of the reasons why the Union between England and Scotland lasted was that the two countries were both Protestant, unlike most of the Continent. In a TL where England remains/reverts to being Catholic, of course, this wouldn't be the case. So, it's quite possible that TTL will have a United Kingdom consisting of England, Wales and Ireland, with Scotland as an independent state.

 

[VVD0D95]

Mary Tudor stepped up the English conquest of Ireland IOTL, so probably the country still gets taken over as per OTL. Afterwards, however, things might well be different; even IOTL Ireland was pretty thoroughly Anglicised, and without religious differences and the memory of things like the Protestant Ascendancy, Irish nationalism might well be a less potent force than it was historically.

Of course, one of the reasons why the Union between England and Scotland lasted was that the two countries were both Protestant, unlike most of the Continent. In a TL where England remains/reverts to being Catholic, of course, this wouldn't be the case. So, it's quite possible that TTL will have a United Kingdom consisting of England, Wales and Ireland, with Scotland as an independent state.

Unless of course the presbyterian thing in Scotland gets crushed in infancy.

 

[Fabius Maximus]

Unless of course the presbyterian thing in Scotland gets crushed in infancy.

Even then, "We're both Catholic, just like most of the rest of Europe" is less of a uniter than "We're both Protestant, unlike the filthy Papists on the Continent who want to take us over and convert us to their filthy Papist ways."

 

[VVD0D95]

Even then, "We're both Catholic, just like most of the rest of Europe" is less of a uniter than "We're both Protestant, unlike the filthy Papists on the Continent who want to take us over and convert us to their filthy Papist ways."

This is true though there is the shared language, some shared elements of culture

 

[Fabius Maximus]

This is true though there is the shared language, some shared elements of culture

Yes, and I wouldn't suggest that a lasting Anglo-Scottish union would be impossible ITTL, just that it would be less likely than IOTL.

 

[VVD0D95]

Yes, and I wouldn't suggest that a lasting Anglo-Scottish union would be impossible ITTL, just that it would be less likely than IOTL.

This is true

 

[VVD0D95]

This is true

Provided the Tudors have more children

 

[machine3589]

Actually, the Irish might well convert to protestantism if England stays RC

Only if you assume that the sole reason the Irish are Catholic was because the English are Protestant.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Only if you assume that the sole reason the Irish are Catholic was because the English are Protestant.

Sole reason? Certainly not.
Major contributing factor? Surely.

 

[Prof_Chemical]

if wales was the size of ireland, itd have resisted english occupation just as fiercely

 

[machine3589]

Sole reason? Certainly not.
Major contributing factor? Surely.

I doubt its even that.

And frankly, the idea that Ireland's religion is dependant on what the English do basically takes away agency from the Irish people.

And besides, France and Austria fought wars for centuries despite both being Catholic, so there's nothing preventing the Irish from hating the English even if they're both the same religion.