Ideas for a successful centralized HRE under the Hohenstaufen

Eurofed

Banned
This is a subject I would love to do a TL about one (distant) day, but I fear lack satisfying grasp of period knowledge about to implement (esp. the various dynastic developments). Which manifold PoDs would be necessary to ensure that, starting with a more successful (and longeve) Barbarossa, Henry VI, and Frederick II, the HRE (including the kingdom of Sicily) becomes as centralized and successful as contemporary France and England by the end of 13th century and early 14th century ?

I have thought of some, occuring in combination/succession:

Frederick I Barbarossa kills Henry the Lion in some battle and joins its territories to Staufen demesne, wins a decisive battle against the Italian city-states at Legnano, successfully reconquers Jerusalem and re-establishes latin control in Palestine and Syria in a successful Third Crusade. He gets the Erbreichsplan passed to make the HRE crown hereditary. He lives on to mid-late 1190s.

His son crushes further rebellions of Welf German nobles and Italian city-states, joins southern Italy to the Empire by marriage, changes the HRE homage laws so that minor nobles have to swear loyalty to the Emperor in addition to greater nobles. He supports the Fourth Crusade to put a Hohenstaufen on the throne of Costantinople, revitalized Latin Byzantine Empire reconquers Anatolia, parallel French-English Fifth Crusade conquers Egypt. He lives on to mid-late 1220s or 1230s.

Frederick II gets a different education to care about Germany as much as Italy and reestablish the peace, glory, and prosperity of the Roman Empire, supports consolidation of centralized imperial power in Germany and Italy with legal reforms, although he concedes the nobles, the clergy, and the cities an opportunity to get their voice heard in the Imperial Diet (HRE proto-Parliament). He fights off the Mongols in Poland and Hungary, until Subotay's death stops their expansion in Europe. Economic prosperity in Germany and Italy from domestic peace further strenghtens Imperial power.

Henry VII inherits a stable, unified empire, well on its way to become a centralized binational German-Italian state (with Latin as lingua franca for its ruling classes), makes Poland and Hungary vassals of the Empire, Bohemia-Moravia is fully assimilated into Germany, German and Italian settlers repopulate a Poland, Hungary, and Croatia devastated by the Mongol invasions, turning Pomerania, Silesia, Slovakia, Greater Poland, Kuyavia, and Lodz into German regions, and Slovenia, Istria, Dalmatia, and western Croatia into Italian regions, and parts of the Empire. The HRE sees itself as the natural successor of the Roman Empire, a claim only successfully contested in Europe by the British and Byzantine Empires.

Any other ideas ?

Moreover, what about changes to the rest of Europe fueled by these changes ?

Possible developments I have thought of:

All three crush the theocratic tendencies of the Papal curia, although it is possible that some Pope escapes to France or England and starts an early Western Schism. Eventually the Catholic Church evolves towards a path much like OTL Orthodox Church, with power concentrated in the various self-ruling national episcopal conferences under the tight grip of local monarchs, the Papacy getting gutted down to an ineffective chairman figurehead. The Latin and Greek Churches get reunified.

The Empire, England, Aragon, and major French nobles all vie for influence and fight various wars in France, wrecking the centralization efforts of the French monarchy, although a Plantagenet Empire emerges out of England and western France (Normandy, Anjou, Poitou, Aquitaine), despite some dynastic troubles and internecine strife with barons within England. Resources from France are eventually deployed to accomplish an earlier unification of the British Isles. The Low Countries, Alsace, Lorraine, Franche-Comte, Savoy, and Nice are fully integrated in the HRE, Champagne, Bourgogne, Dauphine, and Provence eventually do as well. Flanders becomes a disputed prize between HRE and England, Paris and central France the unhappy fighting ground as Britain, HRE, Aragon/Iberia, and various French nobles fight war after war there for supremacy in France and western Europe. Languedoc becomes an Aragonese possession.

Emigration from French wars accelerate the Reconquista to completion by the end of the 13th century, Iberia becomes a secondary battleground between Britain and the HRE, although it eventually unifies under Aragon by a mix of wars and dynastic marriages. It takes some part in the contest to control France, even if it mostly focuses towards expanding the Reconquista in northern Africa (Morocco, western Algeria). The HRE gets some chunks of northern Africa as well (eastern Algeria, Tunisia, Tripolitania).

Mongol rampage in the Middle East wrecks Islamic states in Persia and Iraq, as well as Christian states in Syria, Palestine, and Egypt, even if the Byzantine Empire manages to ward the Mongols off Anatolia. The Byzantines manage to reabsorb Syria and Palestine, Egypt turns into a contested area between the Byzantines and the HRE, as do the Balkans.
Persia is conquered and reunified by the Turks, absorbs Mesopotamia, and stalemates the Byzantines.

Antagonism with the HRE economic dominance in the Baltic and a series of dynastic marriages push Danemark, Norway, and Sweden into personal, later real union among themselves and evertually with the British Empire as well.
 
Ah, glad to find a post I can pick apart. It's been a while.

Which manifold PoDs would be necessary to ensure that, starting with a more successful (and longeve) Barbarossa, Henry VI, and Frederick II, the HRE (including the kingdom of Sicily) becomes as centralized and successful as contemporary France and England by the end of 13th century and early 14th century ?
I really do not see any plausible way for this to be achieved. Keep in mind that at the time France was only just beginning to centralize and England faced occasional revolts of the nobility. Another important fact is that it paradoxically was the Hohenstaufen dynasty's attempt to centralize power and suppress the nobility that led to the fracturing of the empire.


His son crushes further rebellions of Welf German nobles and Italian city-states, joins southern Italy to the Empire by marriage, changes the HRE homage laws so that minor nobles have to swear loyalty to the Emperor in addition to greater nobles. He supports the Fourth Crusade to put a Hohenstaufen on the throne of Costantinople, revitalized Latin Byzantine Empire reconquers Anatolia, parallel French-English Fifth Crusade conquers Egypt. He lives on to mid-late 1220s or 1230s.
So Frederick's sons manage to continue to conquer more and more territory, spend much of their reigns on crusade, and crush the power of the nobility in two countries (Italy and Germany), all at once? They failed in OTL, why would involving themselves even more outside of the Empire be any more successful here?


Frederick II gets a different education to care about Germany as much as Italy and reestablish the peace, glory, and prosperity of the Roman Empire, supports consolidation of centralized imperial power in Germany and Italy with legal reforms, although he concedes the nobles, the clergy, and the cities an opportunity to get their voice heard in the Imperial Diet (HRE proto-Parliament).
I do not think that any monarch of the era would be able to successfully balance Germany and Italy. Both were fairly restive in the 13th century, and too much focus on one kingdom would thus give more freedom to the other. Centralizing both as you outline would be impossible- those concessions you have Frederick give were largely what in OTL led to decentralization.

He fights off the Mongols in Poland and Hungary, until Subotay's death stops their expansion in Europe. Economic prosperity in Germany and Italy from domestic peace further strenghtens Imperial power.
This pretty much is what happened in OTL. The Mongols did not conquer Germany... and how would peace strengthen power?

...makes Poland and Hungary vassals of the Empire, Bohemia-Moravia is fully assimilated into Germany,...
So how does the emperor keep the nobles of Germany and Italy under control while he is conquering Poland, Hungary, and Bohemia? :confused:

...German and Italian settlers repopulate a Poland, Hungary, and Croatia devastated by the Mongol invasions,...
I thought that Frederick II saved Europe from the Mongols ITTL? :confused:

The HRE sees itself as the natural successor of the Roman Empire, a claim only successfully contested in Europe by the British and Byzantine Empires.
Just like OTL?

...wrecking the centralization efforts of the French monarchy, although a Plantagenet Empire emerges out of England and western France (Normandy, Anjou, Poitou, Aquitaine),
And it wouldn't be a Eurofed TL without a Balkanized France. :rolleyes:


The Byzantines manage to reabsorb Syria and Palestine, Egypt turns into a contested area between the Byzantines and the HRE, as do the Balkans.
... And it also wouldn't be a Eurofed TL without the Christians beating back the pesky Muslims and reconquering their "rightful territory." :rolleyes:
 
I really do not see any plausible way for this to be achieved. Keep in mind that at the time France was only just beginning to centralize and England faced occasional revolts of the nobility. Another important fact is that it paradoxically was the Hohenstaufen dynasty's attempt to centralize power and suppress the nobility that led to the fracturing of the empire.

I disagree; Henry VI had won. This needs emphasizing. He'd managed to gain some control over the Lombard League; he controlled Central Italy; and he controlled Sicily. He almost managed to make the empire hereditary, and he was exacting tribute from the Byzantines.
 

Eurofed

Banned
Ah, glad to find a post I can pick apart. It's been a while.

Any feedback is welcome. :p Although please take into account that this is nowhere a shaped TL, just half a cattle call for ideas about one, half throwing my own half-baked ideas in the discussion.

I really do not see any plausible way for this to be achieved. Keep in mind that at the time France was only just beginning to centralize and England faced occasional revolts of the nobility. Another important fact is that it paradoxically was the Hohenstaufen dynasty's attempt to centralize power and suppress the nobility that led to the fracturing of the empire.

Well, the point is to put to the Empire on the same successful path to centralization as period France and England, nothing more, nothing less. Near-complete centralization would most likely take another three centuries, like those countries. The point here is to reverse OTL trend towards decentralization borne out of the Hohenstaufen failure, into a success of the Empire and the dynasty. Since similar attempts in other countries worked (despite occasional stopgaps like noble revolts), it may work for the Empire as well.

So Frederick's sons manage to continue to conquer more and more territory, spend much of their reigns on crusade, and crush the power of the nobility in two countries (Italy and Germany), all at once? They failed in OTL, why would involving themselves even more outside of the Empire be any more successful here?

Not really. The key three generations (Frederick I, Henry VI, Frederick II) spend of their time focused on domestic matters, reforming Italy and Germany. The Third Crusade is an helpful diversion because prestige from the reconquest of Jerusalem brings useful political leverage against the Pope, clergy, and nobilty. The Fourth Crusade is a relatively quick affair and another helpful diversion, it puts a friendly king on the throne of Costantinople, and it brings wealth since it puts Byzantine trade fully in the hands of Italo-German merchants. The Latin Byzantine Empire, as well as the other Crusader states in the Middle East, becomes a vassal state that is mostly self-managing by immigrated HRE cadet nobles and burghers. As a matter of fact, it reassesses its independence in a generation as the immigrant rulers "go native" and mingle with local Greek elites. However, they manage to revitalize the Byzantine Empire for good. The Crusade in Egypt is an Anglo-French affair.

Possible conquests in France and North Africa, if any, would occur much later, when the Empire is already largely mostly stable, in the late 13th century and 14th century, in the reign of Frederick II's grandson and grand-grandson. Sorry if I didn't make this point cleaer, I was conflating PoDs to make the Empire stronger in late 12th and early-mid 13th century and later consequences of this success on the rest of Europe. Expansion in Poland and Hungary would mostly be a self-managed affair, like OTL, only more successful because it gets more patronage from a stronger Empire.

So I don't see foreign expansion and domestic reform getting so much in the steaps of each other. The former would mostly occur after the latter is basically done. Besides, up to a degree, successful expansion keeps the nobles and the burghers happy, so it helps central power.

I do not think that any monarch of the era would be able to successfully balance Germany and Italy. Both were fairly restive in the 13th century, and too much focus on one kingdom would thus give more freedom to the other.

I beg to differ, that it was wholly doable, and this thread's purpose is to highlight the means by which it could be done. France, England, and Spain were not really less restive in the period, only got more successful kings.

Centralizing both as you outline would be impossible- those concessions you have Frederick give were largely what in OTL led to decentralization.

As the history of England shows, a moderate amount of representation for the elites is far from incompatible with development of a centralized state. OTL Frederick gave much, much ampler concessions than a budding proto-Parliament, he gave away most of the regalia, and the long interregnum did the rest. TTL undoes both.

This pretty much is what happened in OTL. The Mongols did not conquer Germany...

History gets mostly repeated here.

and how would peace strengthen power?

Economic prosperity gives the minor nobles and the burghers boosted appreciation for the benefits of a stable and strong central government. Part of the virtous circle that stabilized the monarchies of western Europe.

So how does the emperor keep the nobles of Germany and Italy under control while he is conquering Poland, Hungary, and Bohemia? :confused:

First: how the kings of France and England kept their countries under control as they fought their various foreign adventures in Italy, and France, Crusades, etc. ? Second, Bohemia is an integral part of the HRE, there is nothing to conquer there, it is just a part of the ongoing domestic nation-building effort like Bavaria or Tuscany. Third, OTL German Eastern Expansion was mostly a self-managing effort and largely successful even in the absence of a strong HRE government. In presence of one, it would at the very most require the occasional military campaign to keep Poland and Hungary into vassallage, the way fully open for HRE settlers and allow them to reach from OTL Oder to TTL Vistula in the late 13th and early-mid 14th century, so to speak. Same as it concerns Slovakia and Croatia. And again, this would be a half a secondary concern to the Emperors, half occuring when the groundwork of a stable government has been laid down by their predecessors.

I thought that Frederick II saved Europe from the Mongols ITTL? :confused:

He makes a valid stand, which helps keep the Mongols at bay, until Subotay's death wrecks their expansion plans in Europe completely. They return a generation later, a sturdy Byzantine Empire keeps them off Anatolia, but they rampage in the rest of the Middle East, wrecking Arab and Crusader states alike.

Just like OTL?

Indeed, with the only difference that the HRE and the LBE would be strong states and not decaying wrecks with lots of economic, political, and milirary clout to support their claims at superior rank, and London's claims to be the pair of both would carry much more weight if they control all the British Isles, most of France, and eventually Scandinavia as well (although the latter was much of a lightweight in the Middle Ages).

And it wouldn't be a Eurofed TL without a Balkanized France. :rolleyes:

Actually, it wouldn't be an Eurofed TL without several successful sprawling empires much bigger than OTL nations, drastically simplifying world map. Woe and ruin to little nation-states, the less the better. ;) Although I concede that my fondness for the Italo-German combo wank may cast France in the part of the loser and the villain more often than not. Although I would be just as fond of a Franco-German, Italo-French, or Franco-German-Italian combo wank. Just like my fondness for Ameriwank does the same for the British Empire. But to my memory, this is the first time I wrote anything that ever contemplates Balkanization of a great power as a real possibility, be it France or not. I utterly loathe Balkanization as a radical evil. In my TLs of choice, failed great powers and empires do not ever break up on their own in tiny useless pieces, they are put to better use by being absorbed into more successful ones.

It think it would be nice, as well as a plausible geopolitical reaction, that the success of the HRE springs the formation of parallel strong empires in Europe. As I see it, the Angevin/Plantagenet Empire is the best candidate of all to be the HRE counterweight, and of course it needs to be built on the wreck of Capetingian France. Of course, there is a lot of diplomatic/dynastic/military leeway to establish the fate of France in such a TL. It might be that Britain only manages to absorb part or all of its traditional Angevin demesne, and the rest falls to the Balkanization chaos that swept OTL Germany and Italy. It might also be that the PE manages to absorb the vast majority of France, that escapes Balkanization that way. It is also possible to make things go mostly as OTL, France manages its own successful nation-building and avoids absorption by HRE and Britain alike.

The only hard limit is that however otherwise successful, France or an Anglo-French empire would never manage to expand beyond its OTL 15th century borders with a strong successful HRE. Likewise, with a strong HRE and PE contending France, it is most likely that at least a strip of French territory would remain as a neutral or Balkanized buffer zone between the two Empire, or be the unlucky fighting ground for their recurrent wars being swapped back and forth. Say Flanders, Champagne, Dauphine, and Provence.

Alternatively, another good candidate to build another counterweight empire might be if England somehow manages to absorb the Iberian peninsula after the Reconquista is basically done. There are of course good economic and geopolitical reasons to make it less plausible than the French option. However I vaguely seem to remember the existence of a possible dynastic PoD that could have brought the union of England and Castille into being, that might be a possible imperial groundwork in Western Europe that leaves France alone. But the Anglo-French empire has more class and inherent strength and it is easier to build up, just like the Italo-German one.

... And it also wouldn't be a Eurofed TL without the Christians beating back the pesky Muslims and reconquering their "rightful territory." :rolleyes:

Chalk it to a) my strong antipathy for Middle Ages Christianity and Islam alike, anything that anti-wanks those IMO scourges on mankind is a victory for the world in my book, of course given the PoD a neo-pagan HRE would be ASB, so if I have to pick a side amongst political systems with loathsome theocratic leanings, b) I root for Byzantium reconquering what those pesky Arab/Turkish barbarians stole away. European neo-Roman fanboy complex and all that. But believe me, anything that makes Middle Age Christianity more successful churns my stomach. However, HRE success almost surely de-wanks disgusting theocratic Papacy into insignificance, which is no small silver lining. If I ever got to write such a TL, expect a guy like Gregory VII or Innocent III to end his career at the stake, with drawing and quartering, or the like.
 
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Eurofed

Banned
It's a bit of a wank, but it's been a good long time since anyone's done an HREwank, so I approve.

Well, I've read some rather good early German or Italian unification TLs, but a real HRE success, ie forging both, as well as all the disparate HRE bits that went their own way IOTL, such as Bohemia-Moravia, Switzerland, and the Low Countries, into a successful and enduring political unity is a much rarer thing to read. To my search knowledge, these forums have had only two really good examples, the "Song of Roland", which keeps the Carolingian Empire together, but it is gone into long-term hiatus, and Faeelin's "Prince of Peace". The latter is indeed giving me a lot of inspiration, even if I would like to start the PoD chain with a somewhat more successful Barbarossa, and I heartily disagree with some of the conclusions that the author implements. IMO he greately exaggerates the amount of ongoing resistance that the Empire would meet from Italian city-states (although the Franciscan heresy might be a plausible reason to stoke it up) and the survival of Al-Andalus which colonizes the Americas borders ASB in my book. Also his HRE swings too widely from total success to abject failure about Britain IMO.

Apart from that, the PoP is a masterpiece, it is part of where I got ideas about the Balkanization of France, the HRE eventually developing a pseudo-British constitution (although it ought to have prevented the pseudo-French revolution), and Frederick II making a glorious successful last stand against the Mongols. As a matter of fact, part of the reason I would like to do a PoP-like TL is to continue that kind of tale, without the ASB stuff like Muslim Spain and Americas, of course. :eek:
 
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Eurofed

Banned
I disagree; Henry VI had won. This needs emphasizing. He'd managed to gain some control over the Lombard League; he controlled Central Italy; and he controlled Sicily. He almost managed to make the empire hereditary, and he was exacting tribute from the Byzantines.

Exactly. Now figure what would result if Henry would be both rather more longeve and able to build on the basis of a somewhat more successful father, and if his son were able to build on the basis of his own father's victories and be educated to care about Germany, northern Italy, and Sicily equally. I can only foresee enduring HRE success.
 
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