Ideas for a 17th century Dutch timeline

I recently got an idea for a timeline about 17th century Netherlands. I would like to posit my ideas, so people can tell me if it will work and possibly give me some tips about how to continue or other things I could possibly add.

The premise is basicly this: The Netherlands is slightly more succesful during the last years of the Dutch revolt. My idea is that Don Ferdinand (the Spanish ruler in the southern Netherlands) dies around 1637, leading to a bit of Spanish confusion of wich the Dutch profit and manage to capture Antwerp, while they manage to keep Venlo and Roermond. The war continues as normal and in the end the Dutch manage to capture Bruges just before the war ends. The end result: The Netherlands is slightly bigger and includes Venlo, Roermond, Antwerp and Bruges.

Antwerp is interesting. It is a major port, but within a catholic part of the Netherlands. It will no doubt become part of State-Brabant, meaning it will be ruled by the the Estate-General (Dutch parliament) and have basicly no influence within the Netherlands as opposed to the cities in Holland and Zeeland. Still Antwerp is an excelent port and will be used so. So this catholic city will increase in wealth and although the wealthiest citizens might be protestants (either local possibly converted protestants or protestants from other parts of the Netherlands), the catholic population will become wealthier than most other catholics were in OTL Netherlands.

Anyway, this was not the only thing I thought of. I thought of including other butterflies. One thing will be a short power struggle between the Dutch stadholder Willem II and the rich merchants ruling Holland. In the end the the rich merchant win and renounce the stadholdership of Willem II and basicly banish him to Gelderland/Overijssel/Utrecht who still wish to keep him as stadholder (while Zeeland follows the example of Holland). Also Willem II lives long enough to get a couple of more kids, so his son isn't the only succesor.

This power struggle delays the first (and I am thinking only) Anglo-Dutch war. Because of this when the Dutch colony in Recife revolts, they are able to sent more troops and end the revolt harshly, killing many Portuguese and replacing them with more loyal subjects (like Dutch, Flemish and walloon protestant, Hugenots, Germans, Jews, etc.). So Dutch Brasil remains Dutch (although it isn't all of Brazil, just the area around Recife, north and south of it remains Portuguese).

Anyway, eventually the Anglo-Dutch war will happen. The Dutch are not prepared and lose at the beginning. The English manage to capture Malacca and the Dutch outposts on Sumatra, but they are beaten before they reach Java/Batavia. In the America's the Dutch do better, because they have Brasil as base. The Dutch manage to capture/keep the Virgin Islands (St Thomas, St John, Jost van Dijk, Tortola and Virging Gorda). They manage to keep the New Netherlands/New Amsterdam and capture part of English Guyana (Surinam), but not all of it. At the end of the war the Dutch return Surinam to the English, while the English return the parts of the New Netherlands they captured. The English keep Sumatra and Malacca though (and the Dutch keep the Virgin Islands).

England meanwhile remains a republic (not sure how though, probably a more competent succesor to Cromwell) and tries to become allies with the Netherlands to fight the evil catholic hordes. The Netherlands isn't interested at first, until France starts to become a dangerous foe. Like OTL in 1672 France attack the Netherlands from the east, through Münster and Cologne, but unlike OTL, they don't have the support of England. Republican England decides to help the Netherlands as do other allies, like Brandenburg, Spain and the HRE, who also fear France. Like OTL the Dutch manage to defeat France, but with help of the English they are more succesful as OTL, so they decide to annex the wester half of Münster as a buffer, creating staats-Munsterland out of it. England meanwhile keeps Dunkirk.

Basicly this is what I have. Other ideas I have is giving Portugal the (eastern) lesser Sunda Islands and thus "balkanizing" Indonesia, with Dutch Java and Maluccans, a Portuguese lesser Sunda Islands and a English Sumatra. Furthermore I like the idea of a Dutch Taiwan, so I need a way for the Dutch to recapture it (or not to lose it in the first place).

So any comments?
 
Always interesting.

Antwerp taken by supprise, almost happend OTL, and a land gain including Bruge, the Geneva of the North. I do not think Antwerp and Bruge ande the part of Flandres will be a part without a seat in the State General, there for they are to important even after their economical decline ( which will recover)
More interesting than a power struggle between Orangist (royalist) and the Regents ( federalist) is a powewr balance between Holland and the rest (with Antwerp)
Per haps this could lead to a other out come of ''The big meeting''
Resulting in a State army and not in a provincial militia.The dissolvement of the state army was one of the largest grivances of William II.
The Anglo Dutch war will happen as in OTL more earlier than later. The whole war was a English initiative, with the son in law of the beheaded Chalres still allave only more likely.
The Dutch could play the war better as in OTL ( the English made some tactical error anlosing their advantage by splitting their fleet after the first victory) A earlier Medway raid?

Brasill can hold out when it was concuered by a harser man than Nassau Dietz, perhaps Captain Crestofle d Artischau Arciszewski? first the bitter and than the sweet
The Brasil conquest included also Luanda Angola.
By the way there were also real colonosation attempedss on Tobago.

So a coin flipping between New York ( not so value) and Guyana is not perse neccecary
By the 1630 the VOC already had a firmer foothold in the Indonesian archipelago then the English and driven back the Portuguese.

If you keep William alive longer and with a robust army, think about a better campaign agains a hostile Munster.
1656 sucsesful revolt of the city of Munster agains their Bishop, supported by the Republic.
Bishop seek revenge and attacks a few year later, attack repulsed by William 2 and made some personal gains connecting Lingen with the Republic?


Make sure the WIC losses their licence after the first runs out, this will encorage colonisation. The VOC and WIC discoraged colonisation
just some thoughts:)
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Sounds promising, about Antwerp if it stay a important port city, it will likely have major religeous, in OTL North Holland has in the post independence periode being the major centre of Lutheranism in Netherland, in until the middle of the 18th century they made up 10% of the province population, the interesting part about this non sequitur are that the Lutherans wasn't Dutch they was mostly German and Scandinavian immigrants, that's just a single group, Holland also received Catholic, Calvinist and Anababtist immigrants. Antwerp will if its a important town see something of the same, while many will likely be immigrants from the Spanish Netherland,the majority will likely be from the poorer multireligeous Rhineland and Huguenouts from France. You may very well see Southen State-Brabant turn into a Calvinist enclave.

Another element are with the Antwerp the Dutch control with the Rhine has been improved, so you may see Zeeland keep it stronger position (Zeeland suffered heavily under the loss of the Rhine trade in the 80 Year, they still will here, but they're in a better position to rebuild their position)
 
I'd be interested in how you pulled off a Republican England, because that would be the hardest thing in your propostion.

If it did happen though, the Anglo-Dutch alliance would be hard. Just because England is a Republic doesn't make is friendly to the UP. The English commonwealth was dominated by Puritans and other groups who were pretty hostile to greed and ostentation which prevailed in Dutch culture (see: Tulip mania). Furthermore, the Commonwealth might see the Levellers become more important, and although it's too simple to cal lthem proto-communists, they would not take kindly to an alliance with an effective oligarchy of merchants and financiers (the two groups most hated by the religious rightwing back then).
 
The English commonwealth was dominated by Puritans and other groups who were pretty hostile to greed and ostentation which prevailed in Dutch culture (see: Tulip mania).
The Tulip Mania was pretty much an outgrowth of capitalism and generally its effects and size are somewhat overstated.

The Dutch Republic at the time was very calvinist and certainly not ostentatious.

About greed, it was the Commonwealth that declared war on the Republic (1651) to get a share of their riches, so yeah...
 
The Tulip Mania was pretty much an outgrowth of capitalism and generally its effects and size are somewhat overstated.

The Dutch Republic at the time was very calvinist and certainly not ostentatious.

About greed, it was the Commonwealth that declared war on the Republic (1651) to get a share of their riches, so yeah...

Well fine, point taken, but the point is that the Commonwealth wasn't necessarily friendly because it was a republic, and that they were still archrivals.
 
Well fine, point taken, but the point is that the Commonwealth wasn't necessarily friendly because it was a republic, and that they were still archrivals.

Absolutely, history is clear on that.

It's more your characterization of Dutch society at the time, that I was commenting on.

For the wealth that Holland had at the time, a very small number of big and impressive buildings remain, so ostentatious? Certainly not.
 
Absolutely, history is clear on that.

It's more your characterization of Dutch society at the time, that I was commenting on.

For the wealth that Holland had at the time, a very small number of big and impressive buildings remain, so ostentatious? Certainly not.

I see. Point taken.
 
Interesting, though I would like to see a more influential Antwerp for understandable reasons:D Maybe they can reinstate Brabant as a province now that they have an even bigger part of it, including it's most important city. Might even be necessary to keep the Catholics happy now that they are more numerous and wealthier.
Also the United Provinces conquered Antwerp and Bruges, but not the city in between:confused: (i.e. Ghent) And if the Spanish still have Ostend they might make life around Bruges a bit difficult at times... (further I'll just assume that Antwerp means everything up to the Rupel/Nete rivers, including the Campine & Lier but excluding Mechlin)
I wonder what will happen after William II's dead. No Stadtholderless period would change quite a few things. As Would William III not combining Stadholdership with being King of England. ( a very good thing for this TL's Netherlands IMO)
Keeping North-Eastern Brazil and New Netherland is another interesting development to keep watch on.
Dutch Formosa lasting until modern times would be awesome. but I'm afraid you'll have quite a hard time of it though as until the 19th century or so any Chinese invasion will conquer the place from the Dutch. That's what happens when they have a 20-1 advantage in numbers. I think you will have to keep Beijing happily uninterested in Formosa in some way, perhaps by paying tribute to the Emperor like Korea and the Ryukyu islands do? (and have the Ming flee some other place)
 
Just some other thoughts.


Please do not concentrate on the conquest of much colonies. Most colonies of the Dutch were trading posts, not as the English East coast colonies, colonies of settelers, building a new home.
The driving force was commerce and trading monopoly (at all cost).
The Spanish Netherlands are not the only way of teritorial expansion. Flandres or Brabant would be nice. But it would be better to ahve a buffer state between the Republic and France of this verry eager young king Louis XIV.
If you let William II live longer, give him some soldiers to play. In the East, Munster, Colone ( same bishop) is plenty room to gain teritory and above all, honor (and plunder)
It are still the merchants who have to provide him the silver for his soldiers.
Eat Frisia is also nice, but it is related to the King of Denmark at that time. Or the count of Bentheim joins the republic. Maybe a land swop or a buy out of Kleve and Julich from Brandenburg.
Any way there more paths than only the Spanish Netherlands or a hardly populated and profitable New Amsterdam (New York).

What about a more sucsesfull 2nd journey of Abel Tasman?

Or a William II which is assisted by a son of Constantijn Huygens or an othe wise guy who played a kind of Dutch equivalent of Mazzarin or Richellieu ?
A full monarchy would it never be, there for the power and wealth is to much concentrated on the side of merchants and craftsmen.


and just some info
One of main reason of wich resulted in the firts Anglo Dutch war was a form of mis understanding.
Cromwell and the puritain ruling England realy thought the Protestant ''brother nation'' the Dutch Republic would join the Commonwelth. In ealy meetings the Dutch made this inpresion of willing to join it. The Dutch were nebver seriuos about it and thought the english forgot it assuming they were not serious as well. When a heavy delagation appeared in the Hague to seriuos discuss this matter the State General was in an aucward position, even more since the daughte of the beheaded king of the English was stolling the streets of the Hague.
When it was clear to the English the Dutch not even thought a split second to join the Comonwelth they returned home deeply insulted and annoyed, sweering to take revenge, which resulted in all kind of rules and acts to make free trade and shipping difficult, and at the end resulted in open fights and sea battles.
 
Always interesting.

Antwerp taken by supprise, almost happend OTL, and a land gain including Bruge, the Geneva of the North. I do not think Antwerp and Bruge ande the part of Flandres will be a part without a seat in the State General, there for they are to important even after their economical decline ( which will recover)
No, I think that Dutch Brabant and Flanders will become generality lands, like they did OTL, as they have a catholic majority. But because Antwerp will become wealthy later on, they will demand influence in the Estate-General and get some equal footing (at least that is the idea). A stronger Flanders (including Bruges) will help too.


The Anglo Dutch war will happen as in OTL more earlier than later. The whole war was a English initiative, with the son in law of the beheaded Chalres still allave only more likely.
The Dutch could play the war better as in OTL ( the English made some tactical error anlosing their advantage by splitting their fleet after the first victory) A earlier Medway raid?

It looks like you are confusing your Anglo Dutch wars. I am talking about the first Anglo-Dutch war and you of the second one.
By the way there were also real colonosation attempedss on Tobago.
I realise that, I just don't want to wank the Dutch to much.
So a coin flipping between New York ( not so value) and Guyana is not perse neccecary
My idea is that the Dutch already have their colony in Brasil. A colony in Guyana would be essentialy the exact same colony as the Brasil colony, a sugar colony. So the Dutch are less interested in getting more of the same and thus aren't as interested in Guyana. Meanwhile because of Brasil the Dutch have a stronger base in the Americas and are able to defend the New Netherlands colony better, which isn't fully occupied. So it is returned after the war.

By the 1630 the VOC already had a firmer foothold in the Indonesian archipelago then the English and driven back the Portuguese.

In 1630 the Dutch only controlled the Maluku Islands and Java/Batavia. Most of the lesser Sunda Islands were still independent (like Bali) or Portuguese (like Timor). So i see no reason that the Portuguese won't be able to capture them at a later stage. Also the Dutch had only some minor outposts in Sumatra, not even close as their presens in Java or the Maluku islands, so it would be reasonable to assume that the English manage to capture them (and Malaca, which is harder for the English to accomplish, but not out of the question). BTW the Dutch also got the island of Rum from the English during the war.



Make sure the WIC losses their licence after the first runs out, this will encorage colonisation. The VOC and WIC discoraged colonisation
just some thoughts:)
Good idea, I can see the WIC losing at least some of the American colonies, like the New Netherlands and maybe (part of) Brasil.




Sounds promising, about Antwerp if it stay a important port city, it will likely have major religeous, in OTL North Holland has in the post independence periode being the major centre of Lutheranism in Netherland, in until the middle of the 18th century they made up 10% of the province population, the interesting part about this non sequitur are that the Lutherans wasn't Dutch they was mostly German and Scandinavian immigrants, that's just a single group, Holland also received Catholic, Calvinist and Anababtist immigrants. Antwerp will if its a important town see something of the same, while many will likely be immigrants from the Spanish Netherland,the majority will likely be from the poorer multireligeous Rhineland and Huguenouts from France. You may very well see Southen State-Brabant turn into a Calvinist enclave.
I like that, although maybe not a Calvinist enclave, but multireligious as in large Jewish and protestant minorities with a catholic majority or better plurality. That could be a good initial reason for the Estate-General to give equeal rights to Antwerp, which later gets enlarged to the rest of Brabant and maybe Flanders and Limburg/Overmaas (I suspect that with Venlo and Roermond part of the Netherlands at the end of the revolt it becomes part of Gelderland and not some state Gelre)


Another element are with the Antwerp the Dutch control with the Rhine has been improved, so you may see Zeeland keep it stronger position (Zeeland suffered heavily under the loss of the Rhine trade in the 80 Year, they still will here, but they're in a better position to rebuild their position)
I didn't think of that. Good point. I like that and a bit of competition for Hpolland is always good.


Interesting, though I would like to see a more influential Antwerp for understandable reasons:D Maybe they can reinstate Brabant as a province now that they have an even bigger part of it, including it's most important city. Might even be necessary to keep the Catholics happy now that they are more numerous and wealthier.

As I said I don't think it will happen, at least not from the start. Antwerp will get rich and influential enough for that to change.

Also the United Provinces conquered Antwerp and Bruges, but not the city in between:confused: (i.e. Ghent) And if the Spanish still have Ostend they might make life around Bruges a bit difficult at times... (further I'll just assume that Antwerp means everything up to the Rupel/Nete rivers, including the Campine & Lier but excluding Mechlin)

At the moment the Dutch capture Antwerp, the next target of the Dutch will be the Schelde Estuary, what is now Zeelandic Flanders. Without it Antwerp is useless, just ask the Spanish and Austrians (and even the Belgians now). If you capture those and the go south along the coast (something I just can see the seafaring Dutch prefer) you capture Bruges. So no Mechelen/Mechlin isn't Dutch, although together with Ostend it is probably the next Dutch target in the region if there is a war with Spain/Austria/whoever rules the southern Netherlands as I haven't decided it exactly. Also life in Bruges will be as difficult as any border town: During a war rough, during peace not so much (btw if I write the timeline I plan to include the Dutch attacking Ostend at the end of the Dutch revolt but getting defeated by the Spanish before they can capture it.).

The Dutch control Antwerp and the non fortified rural regions around it. I fear that doesn't include Lier (which is mentioned as a Belgian "vestingstad") but I could be wrong about that.


I wonder what will happen after William II's dead. No Stadtholderless period would change quite a few things. As Would William III not combining Stadholdership with being King of England. ( a very good thing for this TL's Netherlands IMO)

I am not entirely sure what to do with the stadholders. I am thinking of limiting their power to just Utrecht, Gelderland and Overijssel at least at first, but I have not yet decided.

Dutch Formosa lasting until modern times would be awesome. but I'm afraid you'll have quite a hard time of it though as until the 19th century or so any Chinese invasion will conquer the place from the Dutch. That's what happens when they have a 20-1 advantage in numbers. I think you will have to keep Beijing happily uninterested in Formosa in some way, perhaps by paying tribute to the Emperor like Korea and the Ryukyu islands do? (and have the Ming flee some other place)

My idea is that Formosa becomes at first just a Dutch outpost to trade with China, not unlike Deshima in Japan although slightlu bigger and less restricted. Over the years the Dutch gain more and more influence over it, while the Chinese lose theirs and the Dutch end up ruling Taiwan.


BTW the discussion about the English Republic (I am uncertain who to quote) . I do not think both will ally with each other because both are republics, but because both are protestant nations. Cromwell actualy wanted an alliance with the Netherlands (actually I believe he even wanted to merge both countries). But a surviving commonwealth isn't that important. i just need an England that isn't antagonistic towards the Netherlands and sees France and/or Spain as the big enemy and is willing to ally with the Netherlands to prevent their rise of power. A protestant king would work as well or a Dutchophile catholic king even. A king might even work better as the house of Orange is related to them, Willem II is married to a Stuart after all and his son(s) could marry a member of the English royal family, like OTL.
 
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I am not sure if the Catholic fate of Antwerp, Bruge nad Genth is an isue. Most of the hard line Clavinist in the North originated from this cities. In this ciities the Dutch revolt stated. when they are captured again by the North. Some or even many immigrants/refugees will consider to go back to this cities. Still they will remain a minority. The re-migration of this hardliners maybe encoraged by the more moderate Hollanders. Remember there were always Catholics in the North who played an active role in society.

You rigth about the Guyanas, why need them when there is Brasil.

The VOC is a profit driven company with profit demanding share holders, I think this will give it a better drive to errase European compettors ( at all cost and with all means) in Asia more than the over streced Portuguese.

Suppose you will limit the power of William II to a few poor provinces, how would you do that and what will you do if the republic get involved in a land war. The Stadholders were the comanders of the State army ( that was their primairy task)
William II son, William III was of poor health and childeren tended to die verry young, so it is fairly easy to get rid of the stadholders. The Orange Nassau's were also keen bullet dodgers, a couple of uncles of William II were kiled by musket balls, since they were too close to the front or to eager or hero's or just not smart

I was not confusing the 1st and 2nd Anglo Dutch war. Relations detoriated very fast, most due to a major differences in world view ( as explained above)
A raid on the Royal navy when anored at Chattam was contemplated during the 1st already:).
 
this has interesting butterflies for New Netherlands especially the delayed 1st Anglo-Dutch war.

you see when this war broke out the colonists had a delegation lobbying the Hague for removal of the WIC from controlling it and gaining either state controll (likely) or provincial status (less likely)

the States General had just decided to kick out the WIC when the war broke out, and due to the WIC having forces in the area they got to keep the colony (except New Amsterdam which had already earned city rights, but the WIC ignored that).

with the war delayed a few things would happen. The eviction of the Swedes would happen perhaps delayed a bit as troops are brought in from the republic. followed by the large scale Native raiding (in retaliation as they were trading partners for the Swedish colony). These raids would prompt proper manning of the forts and perhaps stationing and training troops in the area.
 
If you want to keep New Amsterdam ( New York) a bit longer and more succesfull from an earlier point, you could butterfly away Gouvernor Kieft. He was the main course of an indian war wich was devastating the small New Amsterdam economy and destroyed the relations with the indians. This relations with the indians was very inmortant for trade.
One option the give Nova Belgica, Nieuw Amsterdam right of a city and Province is to let Mr van der Donckt sail a year or 2 earlier to Amsterdam for his plea in front of the State General for more autonomy and a complete reduction of the WIC.
An other option to get rid of the WIC, and to prosper Niew Amsterdam, is that the State General would not lenghten the Charter the WIC had.
The Charter of the WIC for the monopoly of trade in the Atlantic was 24 years, erected in 1621 this would end in 1645. Before the end of the Charter the merchants of Amsterdam already opposed to this malfuntioning WIC. The WIC was by 1640 defacto busted but struggled on. For some internal political reasons the State general give the WIC an Charter for an other 24 years.
A end of the WIC, replaced by smaller private companies and free traders, would be very benificial for all colonies and trade posts around the Atlantic.

Please do not wank it with colonies, the United Provinces only counted around 2-3 milion inhabbitants, which had, in the 17th century, a living standard and a liberty which was far above the other Europeans. ( also for the common man) so there was not much reason to start an unpredictable life in a remote strange land.

Also the power of the United Provinces was that it was a Confederacy ( like OTL EU) but this was also their weakness in time of war. Chances on the Battle fields would be better if there was one State Army and the fleet would be under one Admirality in stead of 5!
 
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Valdemar II

Banned
If you want to keep New Amsterdam ( New York) a bit longer and more succesfull from an earlier point, you could butterfly away Gouvernor Kieft. He was the main course of an indian war wich was devastating the small New Amsterdam economy and destroyed the relations with the indians. This relations with the indians was very inmortant for trade.
One option the give Nova Belgica, Nieuw Amsterdam right of a city and Province is to let Mr van der Donckt sail a year or 2 earlier to Amsterdam for his plea in front of the State General for more autonomy and a complete reduction of the WIC.
An other option to get rid of the WIC, and to prosper Niew Amsterdam, is that the State General would not lenghten the Charter the WIC had.
The Charter of the WIC for the monopoly of trade in the Atlantic was 24 years, erected in 1621 this would end in 1645. Before the end of the Charter the merchants of Amsterdam already opposed to this malfuntioning WIC. The WIC was by 1640 defacto busted but struggled on. For some internal political reasons the State general give the WIC an Charter for an other 24 years.
A end of the WIC, replaced by smaller private companies and free traders, would be very benificial for all colonies and trade posts around the Atlantic.
Sound like a good idea, it would also create a interesting relationship if New Amsterdam are a full province even if it just has the same rights, it could create a precedence to set up other provinces in North America. Of course it could also result in that New Netherlands becoming a large unitarian province, so instead of declaring independence, it's more like they get thrown out, to avoid them becoming dominant over the homeland (through I think it's more likely that Dutch push for it to split up in several oversea provinces).
A interesting aspect are culture of a developing New Netherlands, USA seem in many way a continues and developing of the structures and mores of 18th century UK. In the same way the later independent New Netherlands may mirrow the Dutch Republic.
Another aspect with New Amsterdam given provincial rights, may we see the same thing with the Cape colony? We may see the Kaaplanders being inspired by the New Amsterdam and push for the same rights, even small changes there can have enourmous demographic, social and political effects on the area.

Please do not wank it with colonies, the United Provinces only counted around 2-3 milion inhabbitants, which had, in the 17th century, a living standard and a liberty which was far above the other Europeans. ( also for the common man) so there was not much reason to start an unpredictable life in a remote strange land.

Closer to 1,5 million in 1650 it had around 2,2 millions at 1800. But yes I agree, through only to some degree. It's important to remember that even a relative small population of settlers can reach enourmous size rather fast. Plus I imagine that the biggest recruitment of settlers will happen among the Huguenouts and among Germans rather than in Netherlands itself (through likely a lot of prisoners in Dutch jails will get a one way ticket to America).

Also the power of the United Provinces was that it was a Confederacy ( like OTL EU) but this was also their weakness in time of war. Chances on the Battle fields would be better if there was one State Army and the fleet would be under one Admirality in stead of 5!

Yes quite likely, through honestly I think that's unlikely, beside in OTL Holland paid around 50% of Netherlands budget, so in reality it was more like a alliance between Holland and several minor states. Which are also primary why reforms are so hard, because they was afraid of Hollandic dominance. Of course here Holland may use their strong position to use the bigger Generality Lands to help fund a larger Hollandic army and Navy.
 
Sound like a good idea, it would also create a interesting relationship if New Amsterdam are a full province even if it just has the same rights, it could create a precedence to set up other provinces in North America. Of course it could also result in that New Netherlands becoming a large unitarian province, so instead of declaring independence, it's more like they get thrown out, to avoid them becoming dominant over the homeland (through I think it's more likely that Dutch push for it to split up in several oversea provinces).

I've played with this idea too, but I'm not sure how viable it is. Not becuase this proposal didn't happen, but because at the end of the day the DEIC are still just gonna fall behind in population compared to the English colonies.

Now, if you could get the Dutch to focus on growing tobacco...
 

Valdemar II

Banned
I've played with this idea too, but I'm not sure how viable it is. Not becuase this proposal didn't happen, but because at the end of the day the DEIC are still just gonna fall behind in population compared to the English colonies.

Now, if you could get the Dutch to focus on growing tobacco...

Yes but even through it will fall behind in population, it doesn't need to end up conquered*. Beside we may see the Dutch settlers moving into the great lake area, giving them control over New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Southen Ontario and westen Michigan Lower Peninsula. By modern day while no modern USA that area has a population which can compete with Germany. Together with the areas heavy industry, it may in the late 19th and early 20th century turn into a North American Dutch speaking Germany, through without OTL German militarism.

*If it got Provinsial rights the Dutch may insist more on keeping it, to avoid a ugly precedence in the homeland, and a the longer the Dutch keep it, even with a smaller population the English colonies, the harder it get for the English to get them out. Especially if we see a large Huguenout immigration to the area in the late 17th century.
 
I am not sure if the Catholic fate of Antwerp, Bruge nad Genth is an isue. Most of the hard line Clavinist in the North originated from this cities. In this ciities the Dutch revolt stated. when they are captured again by the North. Some or even many immigrants/refugees will consider to go back to this cities. Still they will remain a minority. The re-migration of this hardliners maybe encoraged by the more moderate Hollanders. Remember there were always Catholics in the North who played an active role in society.

Catholics played an important role and were treated relatively decent in the Dutch republic (certainly compared to protestants in catholic countries), but they weren't equal. So i believe at forst the catholic areas of Flanders and Brabant wouldn't have a lot of influence, but the moment those areas will become richer (certainly Brabant with Antwerp) they will demand and probably get influence. I don't think there will be a lot remigration, it has been a long time since those people moved to Holland and the centre of commerce will remain at Amsterdam.



Suppose you will limit the power of William II to a few poor provinces, how would you do that and what will you do if the republic get involved in a land war. The Stadholders were the comanders of the State army ( that was their primairy task)
William II son, William III was of poor health and childeren tended to die verry young, so it is fairly easy to get rid of the stadholders. The Orange Nassau's were also keen bullet dodgers, a couple of uncles of William II were kiled by musket balls, since they were too close to the front or to eager or hero's or just not smart
The OTL Willem III will be butterflied away, as he was born after the POD (but I have no doubt Willem II would name his son Willem, so there will be an ATL Willem III)
this has interesting butterflies for New Netherlands especially the delayed 1st Anglo-Dutch war.

you see when this war broke out the colonists had a delegation lobbying the Hague for removal of the WIC from controlling it and gaining either state controll (likely) or provincial status (less likely)

the States General had just decided to kick out the WIC when the war broke out, and due to the WIC having forces in the area they got to keep the colony (except New Amsterdam which had already earned city rights, but the WIC ignored that).

I had forgotten about that, but you're right. I don't think the New Netherlands would get a provincial status, but something like a generality land of a copy of the position of Drenthe makes sense.

If you want to keep New Amsterdam ( New York) a bit longer and more succesfull from an earlier point, you could butterfly away Gouvernor Kieft. He was the main course of an indian war wich was devastating the small New Amsterdam economy and destroyed the relations with the indians. This relations with the indians was very inmortant for trade.
One option the give Nova Belgica, Nieuw Amsterdam right of a city and Province is to let Mr van der Donckt sail a year or 2 earlier to Amsterdam for his plea in front of the State General for more autonomy and a complete reduction of the WIC.
An other option to get rid of the WIC, and to prosper Niew Amsterdam, is that the State General would not lenghten the Charter the WIC had.
The Charter of the WIC for the monopoly of trade in the Atlantic was 24 years, erected in 1621 this would end in 1645. Before the end of the Charter the merchants of Amsterdam already opposed to this malfuntioning WIC. The WIC was by 1640 defacto busted but struggled on. For some internal political reasons the State general give the WIC an Charter for an other 24 years.
A end of the WIC, replaced by smaller private companies and free traders, would be very benificial for all colonies and trade posts around the Atlantic.
Good ideas I will think about

Please do not wank it with colonies, the United Provinces only counted around 2-3 milion inhabbitants, which had, in the 17th century, a living standard and a liberty which was far above the other Europeans. ( also for the common man) so there was not much reason to start an unpredictable life in a remote strange land.
Well lots of settler colonies won't happen of course. A Netherlands that controls all the USA and Canada, Australia and New Zealand, like Britain did is out of the question. At this point I think the Netherlands will just control the New Netherlands and the Cape colony (and to a lesser extend Recife/New Holland) as settler colonies.
Also the power of the United Provinces was that it was a Confederacy ( like OTL EU) but this was also their weakness in time of war. Chances on the Battle fields would be better if there was one State Army and the fleet would be under one Admirality in stead of 5!

Good point, maybe I will let the stadholders win the powerstuggle, they would create astate army (and fleet).

Sound like a good idea, it would also create a interesting relationship if New Amsterdam are a full province even if it just has the same rights, it could create a precedence to set up other provinces in North America. Of course it could also result in that New Netherlands becoming a large unitarian province, so instead of declaring independence, it's more like they get thrown out, to avoid them becoming dominant over the homeland (through I think it's more likely that Dutch push for it to split up in several oversea provinces).
Hmmm, possibly. It also depends on how the Netherlands develops. I need to think about it, as it probably won't happen for the frst couple of decades.
Valdemar II;3348781 Another aspect with New Amsterdam given provincial rights said:
With the example of the New Netherlands, a same deal with the Cape colony only makes sense. And maybe the samething happens to Dutch Brasil, although that depands on how it developes. Probably more along the line of Dutch Guyana/Surinam than as a settler colony.



Yes but even through it will fall behind in population, it doesn't need to end up conquered*. Beside we may see the Dutch settlers moving into the great lake area, giving them control over New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Southen Ontario and westen Michigan Lower Peninsula. By modern day while no modern USA that area has a population which can compete with Germany. Together with the areas heavy industry, it may in the late 19th and early 20th century turn into a North American Dutch speaking Germany, through without OTL German militarism.
Hmmm, interesting idea, although I probably shouldn't look too far ahead.
 
I always like to see a time line were were Nassau Siegen is burried (some were in 1672) in the Grand Church of Recive, rememberd by a complete hodge podge of a population as the Great Governor of New Holland (Brasil) :)

Some other idieas, in 1686 a ship stranded at the coast of Natal, it carried an agreement with a Xhosa king for the purchase of a piece of land for an other outpost of Cape Town some were in Natal. The agrement was lost in the shipwreck.
In 1721 at the Delagoa bay in Mozambique fort '' Lijdzaamheid'' was build, it was build on an infavorable position and due to the hars living condition and lack of profits among other problems it was abanndoned after some 20 years. One of the reasons for this out post was to find gold.

Options for teritorial gains for the Netherlands are not only in the South of the Netherlands but as well in the East, the German principalties are with some very smart diplomacy nice aditions for an ambitous William II.

Some were in the 18th century the the State General and the VOC and other trading companies, could agree to hand over the rule of some African and American posessions.


I wish you succes and looking forward to see this ATL
 
Well lots of settler colonies won't happen of course. A Netherlands that controls all the USA and Canada, Australia and New Zealand, like Britain did is out of the question. At this point I think the Netherlands will just control the New Netherlands and the Cape colony (and to a lesser extend Recife/New Holland) as settler colonies.

IOTL, Dutch harbours and Antwerp were among the most important harbours for emmigration of Germans. The Dutch controling the whole mouth of the Rhine could easily promote emmigration of Germans into their colonies, if they see it fit. In Germany, the consequences of the 30-years war are still felt. Shouldn't be that hard to find people willing to start anew in America, particularly if the Dutch are more tolerant in religious things.
 
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