Ideal German tank?
- Thread starter DUWANG
- Start date
Nice diagram.
Or simply the Pz3 glacis plate and rear...?
Over hang of Pz4 upper hull many adds more plates.
I would have cast the upper hull, turret and hull front, and added hardened de-capping plates.
Sentinel castings. I would not cast hull sides, rear and turret roof.
marathag
Banned
The Germans wanted to avoid large castings, not sure why, as their RR manufacturers would have been set to do large pours for frames.
True...
They didn't need castings when they had relatively thin, facehardened plates, with the rare metals needed to make good steel and welding electrodes. They were also helped by Britain using plain AP uncapped shot.
Once you go thick, standards drop and APC is introduced, casting has advantages. Yes, it's not as hard, but softer, tougher and less brittle. No welds.
Put a very hard (but brittle) decapping /standoff will decap, yaw and fracture hard AP and cores, before striking the main casting. Standoff will defeat many early shallow or steel cone HEAT rounds.
Casting should be cheaper and easier than bending thick turret plate and cutting the complex serrated joins of German armour.
They didn't need castings when they had relatively thin, facehardened plates, with the rare metals needed to make good steel and welding electrodes. They were also helped by Britain using plain AP uncapped shot.
Once you go thick, standards drop and APC is introduced, casting has advantages. Yes, it's not as hard, but softer, tougher and less brittle. No welds.
Put a very hard (but brittle) decapping /standoff will decap, yaw and fracture hard AP and cores, before striking the main casting. Standoff will defeat many early shallow or steel cone HEAT rounds.
Casting should be cheaper and easier than bending thick turret plate and cutting the complex serrated joins of German armour.
Would such a change impact tank production
I used to have a good link to a website that listed monthly German tank production and events like changes to guns calibre etc were obvious by the reduction and then slow ramp up of tanks produced every time this happened
Might be this one?
Yes note the disruption to tank production between Aug -Dec 1940 when the PZIII up-gunned to the 5cm L42 and a lesser disruption when later changing to the L60
I would imagine that 'adding' armour was far less disruptive than switching to a casting
Garrison
Donor
Yeah applique armour often was either just welded on to existing hulls or holes were drilled and it was just bolted on. There was a lag for armour improvements to be incorporated into production line though. Fitting a bigger gun tended to involve changes in the layout of the turret that reset the learning curve and cost a certain amount of efficiency until the manufacturers learned the in and outs of the new design, same thing happened when new models of the Bf109 were introduced.
I always understood the PZIII design to have had the larger gun capability 'built in' - to the design, there was a desire to have a 50mm gun but they lacked the industry etc until late 1940
Garrison
Donor
I'm sure it was, but even planned change could disrupt the 'flow' on the production line for a time.
marathag
Banned
They could have used the Czech 47mm, Skoda had been producing them for years before the War
Is it as good as the 50mm? Not really.
But far better than the 37mm
Again given the 5 month disruption experienced in late 1940 when they up gunned to the L42 5cm - where monthly production of 50-60 plus tanks a month dropped to just 13 between Aug-Dec - a loss of at least 250 tanks, any earlier disruption to production to fit the Czech gun is going to likely rob Germany of a Panzer Division during the fighting in 1940 and a large percentage of the PzIII then in service given the low numbers made up to early 1940
marathag
Banned
Thinking that the upgrading to 47mm would happen pre-war when overallproduction was low while they were also sorting out the suspension issues, and even if not, don't have all plants change to 47mm at the same time.
Only 96 IIIE chassis were built thru 1939 by Daimler and MAN, with Alkett and Krupp supplying the turrets, who in turn were getting 37mm from Rheinmetall.
Do we have any idea what 47mm production was during this period?
I also have not been able to find a turret mounted version of the gun suitable for the PZIII
I know they made about 200 odd PZg1s tank destroyers in 40/41 using the gun but that was mounted in a marauder style so unlikely to need much in the way of change from the towed version
So when would a suitable variant of the gun be available following the occupation of Czechoslovakia in March 39?
marathag
Banned
CKD company built two prototype mediums before the war with a Skoda 47mm, the V8H in 1938. Pretty much an enlarged LT vz 35, with 50mm armor and Praga 250 hp engine.
Pretty sure it wasn't that they didn't have the capability, but instead that the standard anti-tank gun was the 37mm Pak 36, and they felt that keeping ammunition commonality between tank guns and anti-tank guns was more important than having a larger gun on the Panzer III, though still keeping the capacity to carry a 50mm gun if it was needed.
That sounds like the T-21, which later became the 40M Turan. Sure you aren't thinking of Skoda not CKD?
In 1934 licensed domestic production of bohler's cannone da 4.7 cm l/32 model 1932,
Bohler's cannone da 4.7 cm l/32 model 1932 is lengthen to l/40 and renamed 4.7 cm pak 36 l/40 (4.7 cm kwk 36 l/40),
Discontinue the production or development of 3.7 cm pak/kwk 36 l/45 (5 cm pak/kwk l/42-l/60),
The panzer IV is designed with schmalturm turret (hull of panzer IV ausf k) ,
The panzer lV is designed with torsion bar suspension with six road wheel's and three return roller's per track https://fingolfen.tripod.com/panzer4/pz4tor.html,
The panzer lV ausf a-c has panzer IV ausf f1 levels of armor protection but with out schurzen skirt's,
Panzer lV come's in 4.7 cm kwk 36 l/40 (7.5 cm kwk 37 l/24) gun armed variant's,
Discontinue the development of the old panzer III,
The panzer IV is renamed new panzer III,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
In 1934 the sturmgeschutz is modeled on the new panzer III and come's in 7.5 cm stuk 37 l/24 (10.5 cm lefh 18 l/28) gun armed variant's,
Design the waffentrager auf pz IV modeled on the new panzer III (waffentrager auf pz IV is renamed to hummel) and come's in 8.8 cm flak l/56 (10 cm sk 18 l/52) (12.7 cm sk c/34 l/45) (15 cm sfh 18 l/29) gun armed variant's,
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
In 1939 the 4.7 cm pak 36 (4.7 cm kwk 36) are lengthen to l/60 with the new variant's called 4.7 cm pak 39 l/60 (4.7 cm kwk 39 l/60),
Experiment with modified 7.5 cm flak l/60 (8.8 cm flak l/56) cannon's on modified prototype panzer III's,
Modify or redesign the 7.5 cm flak l/60 (8.8 cm flak l/56) in to 7.5 cm l/70 (8.8 cm l/71),
The third panzer 58 prototype take's the place of panzer IV (panzer 58 is renamed to panzer IV),
Modify or redesign the 10 cm sk 18 l/52 in to royal ordnance l7a1 so it can fit in the panzer IV,
Start the design of panzer IV and plan it with 8.8 cm l/71 (10 cm l/52) gun armed variant's.
Bohler's cannone da 4.7 cm l/32 model 1932 is lengthen to l/40 and renamed 4.7 cm pak 36 l/40 (4.7 cm kwk 36 l/40),
Discontinue the production or development of 3.7 cm pak/kwk 36 l/45 (5 cm pak/kwk l/42-l/60),
The panzer IV is designed with schmalturm turret (hull of panzer IV ausf k) ,
The panzer lV is designed with torsion bar suspension with six road wheel's and three return roller's per track https://fingolfen.tripod.com/panzer4/pz4tor.html,
The panzer lV ausf a-c has panzer IV ausf f1 levels of armor protection but with out schurzen skirt's,
Panzer lV come's in 4.7 cm kwk 36 l/40 (7.5 cm kwk 37 l/24) gun armed variant's,
Discontinue the development of the old panzer III,
The panzer IV is renamed new panzer III,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
In 1934 the sturmgeschutz is modeled on the new panzer III and come's in 7.5 cm stuk 37 l/24 (10.5 cm lefh 18 l/28) gun armed variant's,
Design the waffentrager auf pz IV modeled on the new panzer III (waffentrager auf pz IV is renamed to hummel) and come's in 8.8 cm flak l/56 (10 cm sk 18 l/52) (12.7 cm sk c/34 l/45) (15 cm sfh 18 l/29) gun armed variant's,
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
In 1939 the 4.7 cm pak 36 (4.7 cm kwk 36) are lengthen to l/60 with the new variant's called 4.7 cm pak 39 l/60 (4.7 cm kwk 39 l/60),
Experiment with modified 7.5 cm flak l/60 (8.8 cm flak l/56) cannon's on modified prototype panzer III's,
Modify or redesign the 7.5 cm flak l/60 (8.8 cm flak l/56) in to 7.5 cm l/70 (8.8 cm l/71),
The third panzer 58 prototype take's the place of panzer IV (panzer 58 is renamed to panzer IV),
Modify or redesign the 10 cm sk 18 l/52 in to royal ordnance l7a1 so it can fit in the panzer IV,
Start the design of panzer IV and plan it with 8.8 cm l/71 (10 cm l/52) gun armed variant's.
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