Ideal American Reconstruction

[Father Maryland]

In OTL after the end of the ACW their was a reconstruction period where the Federal government at various times tried to reform Southern society, rebuild the south, and ensure rights for former slaves. Ultimately it more or less failed utterly and Southern society remained unreformed and civil rights were stripped from black citizens for nearly a century.

So the proposition is what is your ideal plan for Reconstruction and how it could be enacted? More then that it's a two part question

1) What is your ultimate ideal Reconstruction (With some caveats. IE things might be better then OTL but White Americans will not immediately universally view black Americans as being their fully equal in every way) and how could it be enacted? What would be required?

B) What is your ultimate realistic ideal Reconstruction plan. IE one that acknowledges that compromises will be made and things might not go well.

 

[Gabingston]

Utterly obliterate the Southern Planter Class. Take not only the slaves but the land too. Disenfranchise former Confederate officials. However, take a reconciliatory approach with the poor Whites. Build up Southern infrastructure and industry, and give land not only to freed slaves but also to the aforementioned poor Whites, having at least a critical mass of them on your side is the only way that this type of radical reconstruction would ever work.

 

[Yi Sun Sin]

Utterly obliterate the Southern Planter Class. Take not only the slaves but the land too. Disenfranchise former Confederate officials. However, take a reconciliatory approach with the poor Whites. Build up Southern infrastructure and industry, and give land not only to freed slaves but also to the aforementioned poor Whites, having at least a critical mass of them on your side is the only way that this type of radical reconstruction would ever work.

Exactly. As destructive as Sherman was, I would argue that he didn’t do enough damage. And also, I would have Lincoln retain VP Hannibal on the 1864 ticket

 

[Vinization]

The white supremacist terrorist organizations need to be dealt with in a way that doesn't directly involve the army. Were freedmen militias ever formed IOTL, and if so, why did they fail, even in states that had African-American majorities like Louisiana, South Carolina and Mississippi?​

And also, I would have Lincoln retain VP Hannibal on the 1864 ticket

Yeah, that too. Or maybe have Benjamin Butler as VP?

 

[Father Maryland]

Exactly. As destructive as Sherman was, I would argue that he didn’t do enough damage. And also, I would have Lincoln retain VP Hannibal on the 1864 ticket

The problem is that in the 1864 Election the Republican Party renamed itself the "National Union Party" combining both the Republicans with the "War Democrats" who supported opposing secession but were more conservative. Johnson made sense in terms of putting a democrat on the ticket to gain those War Democrat votes.

 

[Hugh Third of Five]

The problem is that in the 1864 Election the Republican Party renamed itself the "National Union Party" combining both the Republicans with the "War Democrats" who supported opposing secession but were more conservative. Johnson made sense in terms of putting a democrat on the ticket to gain those War Democrat votes.

Have George Atzerodt go through with it and assassinate Andrew Johnson (or have a more determined terrorist take on the task). It gets the north angrier and more determined while also removing an obstructive executive. Reconstruction needs to last longer and the Klan needs to be dealt with with as much force as necessary. As long as the freedmen can vote you should be able to prevent the southern states from instituting Jim Crow.

 

[Yi Sun Sin]

Have George Atzerodt go through with it and assassinate Andrew Johnson (or have a more determined terrorist take on the task). It gets the north angrier and more determined while also removing an obstructive executive. Reconstruction needs to last longer and the Klan needs to be dealt with with as much force as necessary. As long as the freedmen can vote you should be able to prevent the southern states from instituting Jim Crow.

With the freedmen also getting their share of the land confiscated from the broken planter class, the foundation of a prosperous black population is established. We also should see integration within the armed forces, with the government making more of an effort to recruit black officers into the army and navy.

 

[Derek Jackson]

Also the Reconstuction governments should have recruited large numbers of folk ( mainly former slaves) who had serve the in Union Army

 

[Slime_blob]

A longer military occupation of the south to prevent the racist laws and the newly freed slaves be given land by confiscating land from the planter class. And federal land that is still not settled. I also assume that the southern whites should have some of their rights be stripped temporarily and the south being ruled by freedment for a while. So they will have more political power when the occupation ended. And I think relocating the white people to the north and north west, And relocating the freedmen to the south might be a good idea. So no discrimination. A black majority south and a White Majority north, to prevent the racial tension happening between the two.

 

[NolanFoster]

Utterly obliterate the Southern Planter Class. Take not only the slaves but the land too. Disenfranchise former Confederate officials. However, take a reconciliatory approach with the poor Whites. Build up Southern infrastructure and industry, and give land not only to freed slaves but also to the aforementioned poor Whites, having at least a critical mass of them on your side is the only way that this type of radical reconstruction would ever work.

All serious discussion of a successful reconstruction starts here. This completely eliminates the viability of white supremacy as a political institution along with its social base. Remove the entire existing political officialdom of the south and replace it with the Republican party machine mobilizing blacks and poor whites. The south must become a racially integrated land of free smallholders and industrial enterprise with strong public institutions.

This will invite violent resistance from said planter class. Instead of an excuse to pressure the government to back down, make it a pretext for further grabs.

 

[farmerted555]

Ideal:
--Expulsion of entire Planter Class and subsequent seizure of property by the federal government for redistribution to freedmen.
--Public execution of Confederate civil and military leadership.
--Compulsory re-education for all poor whites.
--Permanent ban of all Confederate flags and uniforms.
--Requirement of 50% of citizens in each state take the Ironclad Oath.
--Military presence of 100,000 troops minimum in the former Confederacy for 30 years.

Realistic:
--The 1860s equivalent of the Nuremberg Trials, culminating with the hanging of Jeff Davis from a sour apple tree.
--Give the Planter Class a choice: Disenfranchisement, lifetime ban on holding public office and forfeiture of half of all money and property, or leave this country with only the clothes on your back.
--Voluntary, paid re-education for poor whites.
--Ban on flags and uniforms, except for veterans' groups and re-enactors.
--Ironclad Oath for 25% of each state's population.
--Military presence of no more than 30,000 to end no later than 1875.

Common to both:
--New state constitutions.
--No Jim Crow laws.
--No pole taxes.
--No literacy tests for voters.

 

[Yi Sun Sin]

Ideal:
--Expulsion of entire Planter Class and subsequent seizure of property by the federal government for redistribution to freedmen.
--Public execution of Confederate civil and military leadership.
--Compulsory re-education for all poor whites.
--Permanent ban of all Confederate flags and uniforms.
--Requirement of 50% of citizens in each state take the Ironclad Oath.
--Military presence of 100,000 troops minimum in the former Confederacy for 30 years.

Realistic:
--The 1860s equivalent of the Nuremberg Trials, culminating with the hanging of Jeff Davis from a sour apple tree.
--Give the Planter Class a choice: Disenfranchisement, lifetime ban on holding public office and forfeiture of half of all money and property, or leave this country with only the clothes on your back.
--Voluntary, paid re-education for poor whites.
--Ban on flags and uniforms, except for veterans' groups and re-enactors.
--Ironclad Oath for 25% of each state's population.
--Military presence of no more than 30,000 to end no later than 1875.

Common to both:
--New state constitutions.
--No Jim Crow laws.
--No pole taxes.
--No literacy tests for voters.

Maybe as a middle ground, an occupation that lasts for about 20 years, co-opt Confederate generals who are willing to play ball like Longstreet in OTL, train and arm black militia and regular units while recruiting black officers, also empower poor whites while making them hate the planter class for dragging them into the war, and give 50 acres and livestock to both freedmen and ex-Confederate soldiers who express Unionist views such as Newton Knight, and punish the middle and low-ranking Confederate officers as traitors (from lieutenants to colonels, as they probably joined the war to support slavery and thus cannot be trusted, thereby gutting any organization that even thinks to resist)

 

[farmerted555]

Maybe as a middle ground, an occupation that lasts for about 20 years, co-opt Confederate generals who are willing to play ball like Longstreet in OTL, train and arm black militia and regular units while recruiting black officers, also empower poor whites while making them hate the planter class for dragging them into the war, and give 50 acres and livestock to both freedmen and ex-Confederate soldiers who express Unionist views such as Newton Knight, and punish the middle and low-ranking Confederate officers as traitors (from lieutenants to colonels, as they probably joined the war to support slavery and thus cannot be trusted, thereby gutting any organization that even thinks to resist)

Actually, I have this idea that's been knocking around my head for years:
--Full pardon for all enlisted men and lower grade officers.
--Majors, colonels, commanders and captains subject to tribunals on a case-by-case basis.
--All generals and flag officers receive tribunals.
--Confederate civil leadership to be tried in criminal court.

 

[Mikestone8]

Maybe as a middle ground, an occupation that lasts for about 20 years

With what?

By 1876 the US Army had shrunk to less than 30,000 men, the vast majority of them out west. That leaves nowhere near enough to police the South in any effective way. Why do you suppose that nine out of eleven rebel states had already been "redeemed" even *before* the last troops were withdrawn.?

For my money, OTL *is* pretty near the optimum. It saw Constitutional Amenments enacted which, while of little *immediate* use, would be there to employ when public opinion was ready to do so, and the Federal Governnment had grown in strength enough to be able to step in effectively.

As for ASB stuff about wholesale confiscation and/or indefinite disfranchisement - forget it. Even the killling of Lincoln failed to bring this about, so certainly nothing else is going to.

 

[Father Maryland]

The white supremacist terrorist organizations need to be dealt with in a way that doesn't directly involve the army. Were freedmen militias ever formed IOTL, and if so, why did they fail, even in states that had African-American majorities like Louisiana, South Carolina and Mississippi?​

Yeah, that too. Or maybe have Benjamin Butler as VP?

Have George Atzerodt go through with it and assassinate Andrew Johnson (or have a more determined terrorist take on the task). It gets the north angrier and more determined while also removing an obstructive executive. Reconstruction needs to last longer and the Klan needs to be dealt with with as much force as necessary. As long as the freedmen can vote you should be able to prevent the southern states from instituting Jim Crow.

Yeah I was kind of thinking that. Have Johnson and Seward get successfully assassinated at the same time. Maybe have Mary Todd Lincoln get murdered immediately after Booth shooters her husband (Perhaps she tries to grab him before he can jump just like Rathbone and he stabs her in order to escape. Only unlike the Colonel here the First Lady dies on the scene.

Maybe have booth have one or two of the other conspirators set off a handful of explosions or fires in DC at this point. More then anything else these explosions/fires are intended as distractions but they end up spreading causing say a couple hundred collateral deaths.


Perhaps also have more direct ironclad evidence emerge of Jefferson Davis, the Confederate Secret secret service and the like funding and help organizing the scheme. You you seemingly have the Federal Government decapitated, the First lady killed, hundreds of collateral deaths, and direct evidence that it was all at least known about and partially funded by the Confederate Secret Service. And from what I understand by the laws at the time if Seward Johnson and Lincoln were to die the man who would take over as POTUS was a radical republican.


Perhaps add to that have the Confederate attempt to burn NYC on Election Day 1864 suceed at least partially killing thousands (Never understood that one as NYC was very very heavily Democratic at the time). Perhaps also have them try a small wave of somewhat similar acts such as terrorist bombings, assasination of some other federal/US state officials, and like acts.

 

[Yi Sun Sin]

With what?

By 1876 the US Army had shrunk to less than 30,000 men, the vast majority of them out west. That leaves nowhere near enough to police the South in any effective way. Why do you suppose that ine out of eleven rebel states had already been "redeemed" even *before* the last troops were withdrawn.?

For my money, OTL *is* pretty near the optimum. It saw Constitutional Amenments enacted which, while of little *immediate* use, would be there to employ when public opinion was ready to do so, and the Federal Governnment had grown in strength enough to be able to step in effectively.

As for ASB stuff about wholesale confiscation and/or indefinite disfranchisement - forget it. Even the killling of Lincoln failed to bring this about, so certainly nothing else is going to.

Which is why we are discussing how to make Reconstruction be successful, for we already know what happened

Actually, I have this idea that's been knocking around my head for years:
--Full pardon for all enlisted men and lower grade officers.
--Majors, colonels, commanders and captains subject to tribunals on a case-by-case basis.
--All generals and flag officers receive tribunals.
--Confederate civil leadership to be tried in criminal court.

Rebel sergeants and lieutenants should also be used by the federal army to enforce the new policies, as they have leadership experience but are deemed not too high up in the ranks for those to deem them incorrigible

Yeah I was kind of thinking that. Have Johnson and Seward get successfully assassinated at the same time. Maybe have Mary Todd Lincoln get murdered immediately after Booth shooters her husband (Perhaps she tries to grab him before he can jump just like Rathbone and he stabs her in order to escape. Only unlike the Colonel here the First Lady dies on the scene.

Maybe have booth have one or two of the other conspirators set off a handful of explosions or fires in DC at this point. More then anything else these explosions/fires are intended as distractions but they end up spreading causing say a couple hundred collateral deaths.


Perhaps also have more direct ironclad evidence emerge of Jefferson Davis, the Confederate Secret secret service and the like funding and help organizing the scheme. You you seemingly have the Federal Government decapitated, the First lady killed, hundreds of collateral deaths, and direct evidence that it was all at least known about and partially funded by the Confederate Secret Service. And from what I understand by the laws at the time if Seward Johnson and Lincoln were to die the man who would take over as POTUS was a radical republican.


Perhaps add to that have the Confederate attempt to burn NYC on Election Day 1864 suceed at least partially killing thousands (Never understood that one as NYC was very very heavily Democratic at the time). Perhaps also have them try a small wave of somewhat similar acts such as terrorist bombings, assasination of some other federal/US state officials, and like acts.

If all of that happened, I don’t see even the northern Democrats supporting conciliation with the Confederates. And that will increase the chances of Reconstruction succeeding

 

[Father Maryland]

Which is why we are discussing how to make Reconstruction be successful, for we already know what happened

Rebel sergeants and lieutenants should also be used by the federal army to enforce the new policies, as they have leadership experience but are deemed not too high up in the ranks for those to deem them incorrigible

If all of that happened, I don’t see even the northern Democrats supporting conciliation with the Confederates. And that will increase the chances of Reconstruction succeeding

I was kind of toying with the idea of one of the distraction fires accidentally extending to one of the cities numerous military hospitals (The City was still full of hospitals for all the wounded and sick soldiers). Their the hospitals poor design leads to the deaths of several hundred wounded and crippled soldiers.

Frankly in this scenario I'd expect their to be less controversy at the time over the Assassination trials (and those on trial will probably be vastly expanded potentially including Jeff Davis and more of the confederate government.). Frankly even with a civilian trial it's likely that all of those on trial receive the death penalty.

So you've got the Sec of State, VP, POTUS, and First Lady all murdered almost simultaneously (in the Seward assassination you can probably add to the death tolls several of the people the attempted assassin stabbed while trying to sec to the Sec of State). Add in several hundred wounded Union army soldiers. And now a Radical Republican is POTUS. We might see treason trials for senior confederate leadership (such as Lee and Forrest) potentially leading to even more death sentences.

 

[Father Maryland]

Frankly in the aftermath of my extreme Lincoln assassination scenario I could see Copper heads like Vallingdam and Fernando Wood getting lynched by rabid crowds in the immediate aftermath. We might see similar scenes as other prominent copperheads and those seen as disloyal also being murdered. The Lincoln Funeral train (Now including Lincoln, his son, and his Wife) will now see even more turn out most probably with a more militantly patriotic/anti Confederate tone.

I wonder if Booth does survive to see trial (and their is evidence of support from the Confederate Secret Service and knowledge of the plan by Jeff Davis) just how that will go. A death sentence is pretty much inherently guranteed no matter what. Ironically a military trial might be safer for Booth. In a Civilian trial if the security isn't tight enough I could honestly see one of the Jurors smuggling in a pistol and trying to murder Booth himself. He'd be the single most hated man in American history. I'm imagining the security precautions that would be needed just to move him between prison and the court room. Pretty much any such movement is guaranteed to require a significant armed escort of Federal Troops completely surrounding him and a very large rabid mob (probably including a number of off duty or retired Union soldiers) surrounding the armed cordon. The Court House wood in turn be constantly surrounded by a would be lynch mob. The risk of snipers, mob members packing pistols or attempt to just stampede the guards to get at Booth are very real. I'm figuring the transport would need to take place in a armored carriage surrounded by at least a company of armed Soldiers with bayoneted rifles to keep the crowd back.

Lincoln quite possibly becomes seen as even more Saint Like then before and we might see a major Federal monument to him occur earlier. Major Coppper Head politicians and newspapermen (That aren't immediately lynched or otherwise murdered) will need to go underground and if possible leave the country. The mood towards men like men like Vallingdam and Fernando Wood will be vicious to say the least. We might see a reverse of the Sumner beating if Wood actually has the courage/stupidity to show up in Congress with one of his Republican opponents preceding to either beat the shit out of him on the floor or shoot him. Which might very well be followed by a Trial that see's the Jury unanimously aquit the assaulter/killer in say five minutes.

 

[Father Maryland]

A longer military occupation of the south to prevent the racist laws and the newly freed slaves be given land by confiscating land from the planter class. And federal land that is still not settled. I also assume that the southern whites should have some of their rights be stripped temporarily and the south being ruled by freedment for a while. So they will have more political power when the occupation ended. And I think relocating the white people to the north and north west, And relocating the freedmen to the south might be a good idea. So no discrimination. A black majority south and a White Majority north, to prevent the racial tension happening between the two.

Ideally land should have been confiscated from the largest planters who were arch secessionists, higher ranking confederate officers, or members of the Confederate government. Divide the land up not just to freedmen but also to poor whites willing to sign something like the Ironclad Oath, Union army Veterans, "Carpetbaggers" from the North, and even immigrants from certain countries.

Have a very heavy Federal government military presence and rapid response plans. Form the Freedmen (and those Union army veterans and poor whites willing to become members of these communities) into fortified Kibbutz style settlements with a large and well trained militia composed of residents with the fortified walls containing the housing and as much of the warehouses and other business buildings as possible). The Kibbutzes are then surrounded by the individual plots belonging to individual freedmen/their families, along with the Union Veterans, Carpetbaggers, and poor southern Unionist whites. Perhaps with some sort of optional labor sharing arrangement where residents of the Kibbutzes agree to sign an agreement where they will share labor on their individual land plots and pool their money for communal improvements and improvements to individual land plots (with agreements in place that stipulate that the improvements must be paid back within a certain period of time or have the produce shared communally.

Invest heavily in constructing new infastructure throughout the South including things like improving navigable rivers, building dams, draining swamp lands, building canals and rail roads, and investing in industry.

 

[Yi Sun Sin]

Ideally land should have been confiscated from the largest planters who were arch secessionists, higher ranking confederate officers, or members of the Confederate government. Divide the land up not just to freedmen but also to poor whites willing to sign something like the Ironclad Oath, Union army Veterans, "Carpetbaggers" from the North, and even immigrants from certain countries.

Have a very heavy Federal government military presence and rapid response plans. Form the Freedmen (and those Union army veterans and poor whites willing to become members of these communities) into fortified Kibbutz style settlements with a large and well trained militia composed of residents with the fortified walls containing the housing and as much of the warehouses and other business buildings as possible). The Kibbutzes are then surrounded by the individual plots belonging to individual freedmen/their families, along with the Union Veterans, Carpetbaggers, and poor southern Unionist whites. Perhaps with some sort of optional labor sharing arrangement where residents of the Kibbutzes agree to sign an agreement where they will share labor on their individual land plots and pool their money for communal improvements and improvements to individual land plots (with agreements in place that stipulate that the improvements must be paid back within a certain period of time or have the produce shared communally.

Invest heavily in constructing new infastructure throughout the South including things like improving navigable rivers, building dams, draining swamp lands, building canals and rail roads, and investing in industry.

All of that sounds good. If you really want to ensure that the backs of the planter class is broken, you should also have especially those like Sherman do much more damage (I'm talking no mercy whatsoever to the Confederate war machine). That way, those who supported secession will never again prosper and thus leaving the path open for the freedmen and the poor whites to fill in the political power gap