IDAF equipped with soviet aircraft

destiple

Banned
Year is 1980,

the fourth arab israeli war never happened , the tensions were defused at that time with diplomacy but uneasy peace has prevailed since 1967 war/war of attrition

but the alliances has switched , EGypt supported by KSA have great relations with USA now ( as part of avoiding the oil crisis of 1973), Syria has cut ties with USSR but has good relations with France atleast

Israel with its series of left wing govt has fallen out of favor with US and is relying on older french and turned to USSR military equipment after embargo from the west.

so now that things come to a head in 1980, the belligerants are poised for a major war ( we will focus on airwar only here and disregard political ramifications please ) .Roughly this is what the lineup looks like

Egypt has
50 F-4E
24 A-7
40 F-5A
60 older model Mig-21F/PF

KSA
20 F-15C
40 F-5E
20 lightning

Syria
50 Mig-21F/PF
50 Mirage III/5
24 Mirage F1

Israel
40 Mirage III
60 Kfir/nesher
150 Mig-21MF/Mig-21bis
60 Mig-23MF
30 Mig-25
40 Su-17/22


What is the likely outcome ? What tactics should IDAF use to minimize the disadvantages of soviet aircraft ? and how can they exploit the weaknesses of the arab air arms
 
Given that Israel is still vastly outnumbered, they have to rely on superior training regardless of where they get their equipment from and should do almost as well ITTL than OTL. Also, given Arabs historical lack of training, they should do almost as bad ITTL as OTL.
Also, given no ‘73 war, do the combatants know how effective and/or ineffective SAMS are at this point?
 

Philip

Donor
How well trained are the various forces? Have the Arab forces trained to interoperate? Do they have AEW support? And so on. A list fighters is not enough to go on.
 

destiple

Banned
How well trained are the various forces? Have the Arab forces trained to interoperate? Do they have AEW support? And so on. A list fighters is not enough to go on.
no more than in the OTL
plus they have their internal rivalries
Saudis probably have US training but withdrawn if they attack israel same with egypt plus indian advisors
Syrian have french and paksitanis
 

SsgtC

Banned
no more than in the OTL
plus they have their internal rivalries
Then they're meat on the table for the Israelies. The only way they aren't is if the Arab aircraft are flown by "Arabs" that all have suspiciously American sounding accents
 

destiple

Banned
but given israelis have such "inferior " soviet airplanes how can they ever hope to compete with US supplied arab airforces ?
 
Year is 1980,
...
What is the likely outcome ? What tactics should IDAF use to minimize the disadvantages of soviet aircraft ? and how can they exploit the weaknesses of the arab air arms

OP never mentioned that Israel abandoned their own AA missile development, ergo Shafir II and Python I are avaliable as per OTL. Israeli pilots were trained for close combat per OTL, while Soviet types (bar MiG-25) are suited enough for such kind of combat. The C&C system remains the same, depoyment of anti-radiation missiles is probably as per OTL (ground-based + airborne, the Su-22 and Mirage III do it probably), so again no changes. That means that 3 advantages Israel held are still there. Plus jammers - 4 advanages, out of them 2 force multipliers. Do the Arabs get the brand new AIM-9L (all-aspect missile)?
Strategy - take on one opponent (Egypt or Syria), move to another (Syria or Egypt), then on KSA.
 
Year is 1980,
Egypt has
50 F-4E
24 A-7
40 F-5A
60 older model Mig-21F/PF

KSA
20 F-15C
40 F-5E
20 lightning

Syria
50 Mig-21F/PF
50 Mirage III/5
24 Mirage F1

Israel
40 Mirage III
60 Kfir/nesher
150 Mig-21MF/Mig-21bis
60 Mig-23MF
30 Mig-25
40 Su-17/22

To stand a chance the arabs would need much better numbers than these. Doesn't Syria get any jets designed for ground attack?
The EAF should use its MIGs and F-5s for interior defense and its F-4s and A-7s for hit and run raids short distances into Sinai. With its meager AF, Syria should rely on SAMs to protect its army and use its jets to protect vital infrastructure.


What is the likely outcome ? What tactics should IDAF use to minimize the disadvantages of soviet aircraft ? and how can they exploit the weaknesses of the arab air arms

Even with better air to air missiles than the MIG-21 used in the OTL, a remaining problem would be poor endurance. Unless the Israelis put all their MIG-21s in bases near the front, like Ramat David and Refidim (if they still have the latter) they probably wouldn't play much of a role.
Btw the arabs have leftover Soviet jets, doesn't Israel still have old F-4s and A-4s? They'd be better for attack than SUs.
 
Given Israel was a "western" air force would it be equipped with standard soviet aircraft like everyone else ir would it look very different because it had a different set of missions than other soviet clients? For example the IDFAF used the F4E primarily for ling range strike, so replacement with a mig isn't going to meet the requirement, maybe only a Tu22 would suffice.
 
Did the Camp David Accord still take place? It would be a serious mistake for Israel to not make peace with Egypt in this international situation. They made peace in OTL with a stronger hand. With Egypt not a threat the IAF should be able to handle the Syrians. Can’t see the Saudis getting directly involved.
 

destiple

Banned
To stand a chance the arabs would need much better numbers than these. Doesn't Syria get any jets designed for ground attack?
The EAF should use its MIGs and F-5s for interior defense and its F-4s and A-7s for hit and run raids short distances into Sinai. With its meager AF, Syria should rely on SAMs to protect its army and use its jets to protect vital infrastructure.




Even with better air to air missiles than the MIG-21 used in the OTL, a remaining problem would be poor endurance. Unless the Israelis put all their MIG-21s in bases near the front, like Ramat David and Refidim (if they still have the latter) they probably wouldn't play much of a role.
Btw the arabs have leftover Soviet jets, doesn't Israel still have old F-4s and A-4s? They'd be better for attack than SUs.
Syria is poor country not sure how many western jets they can buy
can the israelis use drop tanks on their Mig-21 MF/Bis ? I mean they can carry 3 drop tanks and will still have 2 x AAM and cannon
not F-4s but I'll give me 40 A-4s
will the EAF be able to use the AIM-7 properly ? esp given the poor state of IFF intense low level dogfights in middle east conflicts ?
 

destiple

Banned
Did the Camp David Accord still take place? It would be a serious mistake for Israel to not make peace with Egypt in this international situation. They made peace in OTL with a stronger hand. With Egypt not a threat the IAF should be able to handle the Syrians. Can’t see the Saudis getting directly involved.
depends on their king, they can do some irrational things
 

destiple

Banned
OP never mentioned that Israel abandoned their own AA missile development, ergo Shafir II and Python I are avaliable as per OTL. Israeli pilots were trained for close combat per OTL, while Soviet types (bar MiG-25) are suited enough for such kind of combat. The C&C system remains the same, depoyment of anti-radiation missiles is probably as per OTL (ground-based + airborne, the Su-22 and Mirage III do it probably), so again no changes. That means that 3 advantages Israel held are still there. Plus jammers - 4 advanages, out of them 2 force multipliers. Do the Arabs get the brand new AIM-9L (all-aspect missile)?
Strategy - take on one opponent (Egypt or Syria), move to another (Syria or Egypt), then on KSA.
did the IDAF make its own jammers ? or buy western ones off the shelf
 
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