IDAF armed with soviet aircraft

Isn't it assumed Egypt in this scenario as in the OTL has HAS?

You got me there. What is Egyptian HAS?

One problem is the poor maneuverability of the MIG-23MS and poor endurance of the MIG-21.

Aircraft that rely on high speed, rather than on maneuverability will be flown like IADF did with OTL Mirage III - use high speed to dictate entry and exit from air combat, and employ 'barrel roll' against slower fighters.
MiG-21 still has enough of endurance to be flown against Egypt close to the Suez Channel, and against Syria above southern Lebanon and Golan heights.

I think one big change in IDAF doctrine will be that it will be more defense oriented , as Soviet aircraft have roughly half the range or less of contemporary western

Flip side Israel mat get a ton of SAM systems like arabs got

Thirdly the lower cost of Soviet airplanes mean they will numerically be a little better position

I was more interested in the tactics Israelis may develop to use the cumbersome yet fast mig23/25 , any suggestions?

IDAF going on defense means yielding initiative to a more numerous opponent - not a good scenario for Israel.
For fast jets like MiG 23 or 25, use the same tactics as with Mirage III per OTL. video (low quality)
 
You got me there. What is Egyptian HAS?

Hardened Aircraft shelters. :)


MiG-21 still has enough of endurance to be flown against Egypt close to the Suez Channel, and against Syria above southern Lebanon and Golan heights.

Of course, especially if based at Refidim or Ramat David respectively. Btw it's canal not channel. :)
 
For static strategic targets maybe static SAM are not a bad idea as a back up ? Esp long range ones

And fully tracked SAM systems can be useful as point defence interceptors against enemy CAS aircraft and helos

A lot may depend on how successful the Israelis are in upgrading Soviet jets. If they can't do much about the MIG-23MS, some SAMs may be a good idea since its weapons are no improvement over those of a MIG-21MF.

What about Soviet IADS like ASURK 1ME or vozdukh 1ME system ?

I guess they'd use it, but the OTL arabs don't appear to have been satisfied with Soviet IADS.
 
Basically as good as they did IOTL. Who flies the jets matters a hell of a lot more then what the jets are and the Arabs weren't very good pilots. As the old saying goes, it's a poor user who blames his tools.
 

Khanzeer

Banned
A lot may depend on how successful the Israelis are in upgrading Soviet jets. If they can't do much about the MIG-23MS, some SAMs may be a good idea since its weapons are no improvement over those of a MIG-21MF.



I guess they'd use it, but the OTL arabs don't appear to have been satisfied with Soviet IADS.
acording to tom cooper the aviation journalist the soviets never really supplied a PVO comparable IADS to arabs , only downgraded ones and that too was not operational until the 1980s , so in this scenario they are flying blind or atleast w/o IADS
 

Khanzeer

Banned
Basically as good as they did IOTL. Who flies the jets matters a hell of a lot more then what the jets are and the Arabs weren't very good pilots. As the old saying goes, it's a poor user who blames his tools.
in arab forces all major appointments were based on political reliability and not merit
there were some really good fliers in EAF, Ir AF and SAF too

Mig-23MS with slightly better AAMs is essentially a Nesher /mirage III in A2A roles but totally outclassed in A2G roles
 
in arab forces all major appointments were based on political reliability and not merit

Arab air forces problems went rather way beyond merely promoting for political reliability and not merit, although it does undoubtedly start with it.

there were some really good fliers in EAF, Ir AF and SAF too

If there are, they haven't been actually flying in combat. Arab air forces have consistently performed far poorer then non-Arab air forces of similar (or in a number of cases, worse) equipment and logistical support both on a individual and systemic levels.
 
in arab forces all major appointments were based on political reliability and not merit

This may have been true in the SAF pilot corps (where most officers had to come from the minority alawite group) but not necessarily the EAF.

Mig-23MS with slightly better AAMs is essentially a Nesher /mirage III in A2A roles but totally outclassed in A2G roles

It wasn't expected to operate in the A2G role. A different variant, the MIG-23BN, handled that.
 

Khanzeer

Banned
arab air forces have performed poorly against 80s Iran and Israel these are not easy airforces to beat esp for any 3rd world power
And an airforce can have some great pilots ( that is all i said ) but still perform very poorly due to
1- poor ground crew support
2- poor leadership and tactics
3- weak military institutions
etc etc

but i agree with you that their failure was not because of their equipment , anthony cordesman has quoted a israeli general after 1982 saying exactly the same i.e if aircraft were swapped result swould not be much different
 
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Khanzeer

Banned
what about bombers ? maybe the israelis would be interested in tu-16/tu-22 or would they rather go for su-24 ?
 
what about bombers ? maybe the israelis would be interested in tu-16/tu-22 or would they rather go for su-24 ?

Was the SU-24 available to Soviet clients c 1980? Maybe they'd still have the SU-22. The TU-22 was available; Iraq already had some in '73.
 
Look at India, which is basically what you are describing. Both in the end are Western concept militaries rather than soviet so they will be using the kit in a 'western' way rather than importing central front concepts wholesale.
 
what about bombers ? maybe the israelis would be interested in tu-16/tu-22 or would they rather go for su-24 ?

The 3 aircrafts you mentioned are very different types. Sales of SU-24 would enhance the ground capacity of IDAF and raised a few eyebrows, but not exactly changing the military balances. At most SU-24 would allow the IDAF to do what its OTL counterpart did, supporting the IDF land forces and conducting interdiction against Arabic armies.

Tu-16 is a heavy bombers that had some users outside USSR and WP, it is also quite traditional as a bomber, thus sale to IDAF would raise more eyebrows, but it would actually be less sensitive than sale of SU-24 as SU-24 is more modern and capable on the battlefield which affect the land combat much more. Tu-16 is also relatively easy to interrupt.

The TU-22 is completely different, it is a supersonic bomber. Sale to IDAF in sufficient numbers is going to upset the Middle East military balance. One thing to note is that none of the OTL Middle Eastern air forces ever acquired supersonic bombers. We are talking true strategic, hard to intercept supersonic strategic bombers here. US aligned Arabic countries are going to ask for help from USA and USA is very likely to protest to the USSR and may threaten to sale same level weapon to its Arabic allies.

In gist, it is highly unlikely that USSR would sell TU-22 to IDAF unless it has a really good reason. Sales of fighter is a political issue, sales of bombers is a political nightmare.

In OTL, TU-22 is the least exported among the 3 aircrafts.

true but I meant if israelis try to multi-role the MS version it would be tricky

Which is why the IDAF as equipped as you mentioned in your OP is going to operate very different doctrinally from its OTL counterparts, thus how all the Arab-Israel would be carried out also in very different manner (if the war happened at all).
 
whereas the US had somehow reached the conclusion that fighters were just fast missile buses whose job was to deliver missiles and then turn back for reloading.

WWIII was to have been USAF and USN fighters shooting at bombers, to protect carriers and cities. Korea was seen as an aberration
So weaponry was set for that task. Also RoE limited missile use only after visual ID was confirmed, and no nuclear Falcon or Genie AAMs either. That cut down the usefulness of long range missiles over Vietnam.

Soviets considered the F8 Crusader as the most capable US fighter for dogfighting
 

Khanzeer

Banned
One thing to note is that none of the OTL Middle Eastern air forces ever acquired supersonic bombers. We are talking true strategic, hard to intercept supersonic strategic bombers here. US aligned Arabic countries are going to ask for help from USA and USA is very likely to protest to the USSR and may threaten to sale same level weapon to its Arabic allies.
I think you mean Tu-22M backfires ? As libya and iraq operated the Tu-22 blinders
 

Khanzeer

Banned
Look at India, which is basically what you are describing. Both in the end are Western concept militaries rather than soviet so they will be using the kit in a 'western' way rather than importing central front concepts wholesale.
right , central front ideas are very specific to soviet doctrinal and geographical situation
 
I think you mean Tu-22M backfires ? As libya and iraq operated the Tu-22 blinders

Sorry, my bad. But I think what I said still stands when you compared the no. of export users of the 3 types of aircraft. Also, TU-22 was consider as serious threats by the Coalition Force in 1991 Gulf War.
 
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