IDAF armed with soviet aircraft

Khanzeer

Banned
PLEASE DIS-REGARD political considerations for this thread

Assume from the 1960s onwards israelis were much more left leaning and got a lot of military help from USSR, while arabs got more help from the west

and now after 3 wars , another crisis is looming in 1980 with egypt backing out of peace talks and a new coalition of saudi , egyptian and syrians ( iraq too busy with iran war, jordan is neutral)

You are the israeli top airforce commander you have in your command

50 Mig-25
100 + Mig-23MF ( ML not available to you yet)
200 Mig-21PF/Mf/Bis
80+ su-17

The arab airforces have

KSA
20 F-15
40 F-5E

egypt
60 F-4E
50 A-4
60 F-5A/E
40 mirage III

Syria
60 Mirage III/5
30 Hunter
24 Mirage F1

none of the arab forces have AWACS and are not being supported militarily by the west/NATO
The soviets too other than supplying weapons to you are technically neutral

What kind of tactics would you ( as the senior israeli tactician) would devise to counter arab numbers and technological advantage ?

Assume similar pilot capabilities and technological innovations for both sides as in the OTL
 
Preemptive strike against Egypt. Granted, this answers the 'what strategy you devise' question, rather than the 'what tactics you devise'.
Israel AF will employ anti-radiation missiles and jammers, whether of their own manufacture or the Soviet types. Israeli pilots are/were well versed in close air combat, be it against aircraft of similar performance or those slower, so again the edge for them.
 
Hopefully some kind soul will rectify this, from Wikipedia:

Further improvements to the Python-3 led to the development of Python-4 in mid-1980s, which had limited "fire-and-forget" ability but added the option for helmet-sight guidance.[6]

Fire and forget is the ability of missiles outfitted with infra-red seeker.
Python is a further development of Shafrir AAMs, that were working by early 1973.
 

Khanzeer

Banned
how can israelis maximize the use of mig-23/25 ? against f-4 and mirage F1 ?

maybe they can perfect slash and dash tactics against them ?
 
Soviet aircraft of the 1960s - as was evident from the Vietnam War, where the North Vietnamese Air Force was supplied with some pretty modern MiGs - tended to favor maneuverability and skill over dodging, whereas the US had somehow reached the conclusion that fighters were just fast missile buses whose job was to deliver missiles and then turn back for reloading. The early F4 models lacked even basic weapons like a nose cannon, forcing modifications to later models. Hell, the USAF and USN had to revise their doctrines and open up Exercise Red Flag and TOPGUN respectively just to get back on an even keel in terms of fighter pilot skill.

As such, the Israelis would probably use the greater maneuverability of Soviet models against the faster-but-less-agile American ones much easier, especially since Arabs would get export models and thus would miss some of the more improved features on the planes.
 
As such, the Israelis would probably use the greater maneuverability of Soviet models against the faster-but-less-agile American ones much easier, especially since Arabs would get export models and thus would miss some of the more improved features on the planes.

Same problem for the Israelis though, the Soviets tended to export 'monkey' versions, of their kit, stripped down and definately not as well equipped as what the VVS would be using. And its not like you could approach their manufacturer. It would be a case of "this is what you're getting, and that's it."
 
egypt
60 F-4E
50 A-4
60 F-5A/E
40 mirage III

Syria
60 Mirage III/5
30 Hunter
24 Mirage F1

Why doesn't Egypt get any F-1s?? Around 1977 it signed a contract for 200 of them but the deal fell through because of Sadat's peacemaking. Had Egypt remained a confrontational state or resumed being one, KSA would've footed the bill for plenty of F-1s.
As for Egypt relying on the F-4, Sadat once asked Hamid what he thought of it. "Excellent bird but it maneuvers like a loaded truck Mr. President" was the reply. The Egyptians were used to lighter, more agile craft so the F-1 may have been more suitable for that reason as well as its good missiles. In addition the EAF had a lot of trouble maintaining F-4s.
 
Preemptive strike against Egypt...

Isn't it assumed Egypt in this scenario as in the OTL has HAS?

Israeli pilots are/were well versed in close air combat, be it against aircraft of similar performance or those slower, so again the edge for them.

One problem is the poor maneuverability of the MIG-23MS and poor endurance of the MIG-21.
 
The problem of such IDAF is that it is a "one trick pony" focusing on air superiority mission but lack good ground attack capacity when compared to the flexible and versatile OTL IAF, esp. when the Phantom is a versatile multi role platform.
 

Khanzeer

Banned
Isn't it assumed Egypt in this scenario as in the OTL has HAS?



One problem is the poor maneuverability of the MIG-23MS and poor endurance of the MIG-21.
I think one big change in IDAF doctrine will be that it will be more defense oriented , as Soviet aircraft have roughly half the range or less of contemporary western

Flip side Israel mat get a ton of SAM systems like arabs got

Thirdly the lower cost of Soviet airplanes mean they will numerically be a little better position

I was more interested in the tactics Israelis may develop to use the cumbersome yet fast mig23/25 , any suggestions?
 

Khanzeer

Banned
Why doesn't Egypt get any F-1s?? Around 1977 it signed a contract for 200 of them but the deal fell through because of Sadat's peacemaking. Had Egypt remained a confrontational state or resumed being one, KSA would've footed the bill for plenty of F-1s.
As for Egypt relying on the F-4, Sadat once asked Hamid what he thought of it. "Excellent bird but it maneuvers like a loaded truck Mr. President" was the reply. The Egyptians were used to lighter, more agile craft so the F-1 may have been more suitable for that reason as well as its good missiles. In addition the EAF had a lot of trouble maintaining F-4s.
I didn't know that but they do get f4s and f5

Please share more information on Egyptian F4s ? Thanks
 

Khanzeer

Banned
Same problem for the Israelis though, the Soviets tended to export 'monkey' versions, of their kit, stripped down and definately not as well equipped as what the VVS would be using. And its not like you could approach their manufacturer. It would be a case of "this is what you're getting, and that's it."
there are exceptions egypt and india traditionally got the best versions available atleast those in widespread VVS service , maybe not the best available
 
I did just think of one thing. This also reverses the AAA issue. You're going to have the Israeli's with SA-6 and ZSU-23-4's.
 
...... as Soviet aircraft have roughly half the range or less of contemporary western

And less payload capacity.

Flip side Israel mat get a ton of SAM systems like arabs got

Weizman opposed that idea. He said a static air defense system was a waste of money. The arabs had no choice because they just couldn't compete in air superiority battles.
True Soviet aircraft cost less, but on the other hand the arabs had an awful lot of money. KSA was reluctant to blow it on Soviet kit for Syria and Egypt etc because that meant more communist influence in the arab world. Western aircraft were better from a political/ideological point of view as well as technically better.

I was more interested in the tactics Israelis may develop to use the cumbersome yet fast mig23/25 , any suggestions?

They'd need an IADS like the Iraqi Kari, but that was built by the French....
 
I did just think of one thing. This also reverses the AAA issue. You're going to have the Israeli's with SA-6 and ZSU-23-4's.


I think IAF pilots could stand up to the EAF and SAF without much of that. Of course in the OTL Israel had HAWK SAMs but generally they relied on fighters.
 

Khanzeer

Banned
And less payload capacity.



Weizman opposed that idea. He said a static air defense system was a waste of money. The arabs had no choice because they just couldn't compete in air superiority battles.
True Soviet aircraft cost less, but on the other hand the arabs had an awful lot of money. KSA was reluctant to blow it on Soviet kit for Syria and Egypt etc because that meant more communist influence in the arab world. Western aircraft were better from a political/ideological point of view as well as technically better.



They'd need an IADS like the Iraqi Kari, but that was built by the French....
For static strategic targets maybe static SAM are not a bad idea as a back up ? Esp long range ones

And fully tracked SAM systems can be useful as point defence interceptors against enemy CAS aircraft and helos

What about Soviet IADS like ASURK 1ME or vozdukh 1ME system ?
 
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