I'd like info on Medieval Croatia.

So let us begin.

If you find some of my answers confusing, don't hesitate to ask for clarifications for much of the matter concerning early medieval period in Croatia is and anyone try to preach something as a gospel either has an agenda or is using romantic history from late 19th early 20th century.

1. How centralized was Croatia in the 1080s? My major PoD involves Croatia falling into civil war and rebellion and an outside power nobody expected swooping in and taking over, and if Croatia is too centralized, that won't work.

I will start with your major PoD. What you are suggesting are events that came to pass OTL just a decade later than what you would like. The level of centralisation of Croatia in late 11th century is pretty much unknown. We know there was a hierarchy including the King, viceroy, counts and captains but how much autonomy each had from the king is unknown. In the 11th century there were at least 20 counties (I am using english terminology for easier understanding) and it is suggested three of those formed a special area ruled by the viceroy but that is based on a report coming from the 2/4 of the 10th century and doesn't necesary coresponds to the sitation 150 years later.

As far as proces of feudalisation is concerned it seams based on current evidence that most of the above mentioned counties were tribal or clan based and later from the leading families of each of the clans a hereditary feudal system will rise, we only get glimpses of that from the few meager documents that survive and nothing can be said for sure. What is interesting is that once the main branch of the croatian royal line died out and Arpad successors tried to asert their claim local lords showed quite a lot of power and acted as if the soveirgnty of the kingdom rests with the gathering of the clan elders (our parliment grew out of that) rather than with the persona of the king.

As for your question, at least in those time greater centralisation allowed for an easier takeover rather than opposite.


2. What was the Croatian army probably made up of? How many troops could a Croat king or major noble probably call up at one time?

There are very few evidence on that. Material finds are meagre since Croats became christians and there are no writen documents on it. Based on what we know I would speculate it was very similar to what other peoples around the Adriatic had with a stronger influence coming from the west than from the east. Oh and cavalry was apparently Croatian thing as far as south slavs are concerned.

How many troops could be mustered is unknown, for the 10th century we have a byzantine document De Administrando Imperi, which was an internal document writen to help the future Emperor, telling us Croatia could muster 100 000 infantry, 60 000 cavalry, 80 larger ships and 100 smaller ship in times of war and that is quite a lot. How much that is exageration is unknown and though many historians dismis these numbers as untrusworthy I myself wonder why would Konstantin VII leave his son false data on the armed strength of their ally but also a potential enemy.



3. Besides Croatians, what were the major ethnic groups around in Croatia at that time?

That is a million dolar question. And the answer is at the same time none and many, because we are not sure what exactly means to be a Croat back than. There certainly was a Croatian identity and was linked to the royal familiy and the 12 noble clans (number 12 is an extrapolation based on info coming from later times, in the begining there could have been more or less of them, we just don't know).

What we know that as far as 2/4 of the 10th century there were people that could be recognised as Avars what ever that should mean, because we are not really sure what it means to be an Avar and how exactly does one distinguish an Avar from a Slav or German dressed as an Avar and vice a versa, just based on material evidence.


4. Croatian culture, what was it like, and could it fit with an wildly different culture? How would massively different (German or French, for instance, though they aren't invading Croatia) names fit into Croatian names?

Croatian culture belonged to the Adriatic coine, and things weren't that much different on the two shores of the sea. It was a mix of local slavic traditions and tastes, with a heavy dose of Frankish (later Germanic) influence and a slightly lighter sprinkling of various byzantine fashions.

All slavic languages including Croatian have a feature that they easily change foreign names into form conforming to the laws of their language so over a generation or two they would be slightly changed and within a century they would feel natural to a Croatian speaker, but linguistics really isn't my thing though it fascinates me. Someone like the Profesor would probably more of a help with that.

5. Any specific Croatian terms I need to know? I know there's ban (which translates to "ruler", or at least "viceroy", right?), but apparent from that, I have no idea.

Croatian titles for the head of state until the very end of Trpimirović royal line are unknown and only after they die out we get a stone document calling the head of state in croatian = KRAL = King

Before Croatia became a kingdom (officialy in 925. but that is just an arbitary year based on the papal later from that year calling the ruler of Croatia, rex=king) the exact name of the title is unknown. Rulers of croatia are usually called princes or KNEZ (but that is also arbitrary) for these are "translations" of latin Dux, Dominus, Regnum and Comes.

Generaly speaking

Kral/Kralj = King
Knez = Prince (but the title is only atested in a later period)
Župan = Count
Tepčica = Chamberlin (but we are not 100%)
Ban = Viceroy (though there are people saying latin Dux should be translated as Ban rather than Knez)
Vojvoda = Duke (but the title is only atested in a later period)
Vladanje = Ruler - but this is based on the translation of a latin text so it is iffy


6. Are there any specific noble families around this time period that could cause trouble?

From that period we have very few noble families that are mentioned in contemporary documents and they are still called noble clans/tribes. These are Lapčani, a noble clan to where daughter of King Zvonimir was wed. Snačići, a noble clan from which a Ban Peter (not to be confused with king Peter, sometimes called Peter Svačić, though they might have been the same person) have originated if some later documents are to be belived.

A document form 14th century claims these were the names of the 12 noble clans and what is true is that many later noble families drew lineage and legacy from these clans:

Čudomirići
Gusići
Jamometići/Jamometi
Kačići
Karinjani and Lapčani - these were probably once a single tribe but got divided somehow since they are usualy mentiond as a pair, and count as one choice on the list of 12
Kukari
Lasničići/Lačnićići
Mogorovići
Poletčići
Snačići
Šubići
Tugomirići/Tugomerići

7. What were the Byzantine and Hungarian attitudes towards Croatia? The Serbian, Italian, and German attitudes? How would each react if a totally foreign conqueror managed to invade and control Croatia?

Byzantines saw Croatia in their documents as a vassal but they pretty much saw everyone as that. What is known is they had cordial relations and were allies for most of the time with only two significant conflicts. One in the 9th century when the byzantine fleet raided Croatian coast and the other in the last quarter of 11th century when Croatia join Normans and Pope against Venice and Byznat.

Hungarians and Croatians were competitor over the control of Slavonia that lies between them, but relations in the late 11th were cordial to allied since his Magyar cousins helped Zvonimir fight a Carniolan duke Ulric II. Based on available evidence Magyar and Croatian royal families were quite interlinked and if everything is to be believed king Zvonimir and his wife were cousins related through two different events roughly 70 years in the past.

At that time Serbia was a province of Duklja or Doclea and though today Serbia claims them as part of their heritage the ruling line of those people had an identity separate form a Serbian one though if documents are believed the later rulers of medieval Serbia drew their lineage from these guys. It is much more complicated and could be a source for a debate on its own.

Instead of Italy I will write about Venice since she was the only city of note that could be clasified as Italian in this story. Venice and Croatia were two old enemies stretching back into the 1/3 of the 9th century and often fought. Venice desperately needed the east adriatic coast because it was sheltered and the adriatic sea trade route went alongside it. On the other hand Croatia needed the coast if it ever wanted to be anything more than a kingdom of krast hills and isolated vallies and through out the period stretching from early 9th to the fall of the local dynasty strived to control the coast more than anything else. Not to mention piracy was seen as a legitimate source of income and Venetians did not apreciate that.

What was HRE atitude I couldn't honestly tell because so little is known. There were some skirmishes along the border and a source during the strugle between pope Gregory VII and Henrik IV calls Croats "Popes Myrmidons" and that is basicaly it.

8. Was the Croat crown (aka being crowned King of Croatia) a "have to go to Rome to have the Pope give it to me" thing, or a "I am related to ruling dynasty or I successful conquered Croatia, therefore I am crowned in my own land" thing?

Well we aren't quite sure when Croatia became a kingdom. There are three events:

Father Gotschalk call Trpimir a king in the middle of the 9th century in a document that is the latest writen document discovered about medieval croatian state, it was uncovered in late '30 when it was long "established" that Tomislav was the first king based on the Papal letter dated 925. And then again we have Stjepan Držislav in the last quarter of the 10th century that recieved the crown and palium from Constantinopol. To add to that Zvonimir got a new crown from pope Gregory VII when he swore loyalty to him.

Also becoming the king meant one was becoming King of Croatia and Dalmatia, but only after the reign of Stjepan Držislav. And many historian think that Držislav was actualy the first crowned king based on his christian name Stephen which means Crowned.

The Crown of Croatia or maybe better the Crown of the Croats was all three by the time Arpad family came to power.



9. What sort of clothing and equipment did the Croats prefer?

The nobility had a mix of western and eastern influences with local differences to suit their tastes and peasants were well peasants, pretty much the same everywhere.

10. Finally, I know the current capital is Zagreb, but was there a different capital in the 1080s? What did the medieval capital look like/how well defended was it?

During the reign of Zvonimir Knin was the central seat, but there were others Nin, Biograd, Bijaći, Solin, Klis. But by the late 11th century Knin was emerging as the dominant location just as it was based on the archeological evidence on the turn from 8th to 9th century after which the centre of power mowed to the coast in the area between Split and Trogir.

Not much is left of the medieval town since a later Venetian fort was built atop the citadel and the modern town is built above the suburbium. It was very well defended since it is on a cliff nigh unaproachable and has a spring on top so can endure for a long time as it was shown in the 14th century when the Anjou kings laid siege to it. Knin is also called the "key to Dalmatia" since it sits on a crossroads and control the easiest rout going from western pannonia to the coast.


I hope I answered some of your question, I probably mised something since its late, so feel free to ask some more and I will try and provide answers as soon as I am possible.

Cheers
 
croatia-in english.com for maps of the era!

I went to the site but failed to find any maps. Also I would be very warry of medieval maps of Croatia, Serbia and the like found on the internet.


edit@ found the maps and would kindly ask you to ignore them considering they were made during the war, to prop up national supremacist propaganda and were based on the knowledge and interpretations of historical and archaeological data from before WW II
 
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Zioneer

Banned
Thanks for the info, Marko! That helps... about as much as I expected to, I guess. I suppose I'll have to make up some plausible-sounding numbers (since I doubt the population in Croatia was over 160,000 let alone their army), and basically have narrative choices that make sense rather than have historical evidence, since there's so little English-language evidence about Croatia in existence? Alright.

Your post still helps a lot (especially on the "Calvary was a Croatian thing"), but I'll have to adjust; I was already planning on having a few things happen in the TL that will make things easier on myself, but now I know what to change.

Side note; Bohemond seems to have been named "Mark" at birth before getting his nickname, so I assume he'd be King Marko I if crowned? Oh, and I am planning on Croatia having a much larger Italian influence, partially due to the Italo-Norman invasion by Bohemond. So perhaps a few of the Italian names will be preserved.

EDIT: Second side note; trying to parse through Slavic names and terms and trying to find the smallest bits of info is a pain and literally giving me a headache; maybe I should try a Byzantine TL instead? Or should I stick with this, even though I don't know much about the area and I'm unable to find much more info?
 
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I went to the site but failed to find any maps. Also I would be very warry of medieval maps of Croatia, Serbia and the like found on the internet.


edit@ found the maps and would kindly ask you to ignore them considering they were made during the war, to prop up national supremacist propaganda and were based on the knowledge and interpretations of historical and archaeological data from before WW II

Will do!!!
 
Thanks for the info, Marko! That helps... about as much as I expected to, I guess. I suppose I'll have to make up some plausible-sounding numbers (since I doubt the population in Croatia was over 160,000 let alone their army), and basically have narrative choices that make sense rather than have historical evidence, since there's so little English-language evidence about Croatia in existence? Alright.

Your post still helps a lot (especially on the "Calvary was a Croatian thing"), but I'll have to adjust; I was already planning on having a few things happen in the TL that will make things easier on myself, but now I know what to change.

Side note; Bohemond seems to have been named "Mark" at birth before getting his nickname, so I assume he'd be King Marko I if crowned? Oh, and I am planning on Croatia having a much larger Italian influence, partially due to the Italo-Norman invasion by Bohemond. So perhaps a few of the Italian names will be preserved.

EDIT: Second side note; trying to parse through Slavic names and terms and trying to find the smallest bits of info is a pain and literally giving me a headache; maybe I should try a Byzantine TL instead? Or should I stick with this, even though I don't know much about the area and I'm unable to find much more info?

Please continue with this TL.
Reigning as King Mark sounds reasonable and might add a veneer of cooperation with Venice - he'll need it to survive.

Despite Marko's compliments I'm not that great with slavic conversions.
I agree with him that names would likely be altered to fit eg Stephanos -> St(j)epan. Or perhaps translated wholesale into the local standard.
 

Zioneer

Banned
Please continue with this TL.
Reigning as King Mark sounds reasonable and might add a veneer of cooperation with Venice - he'll need it to survive.

Despite Marko's compliments I'm not that great with slavic conversions.
I agree with him that names would likely be altered to fit eg Stephanos -> St(j)epan. Or perhaps translated wholesale into the local standard.

That does help, and thanks for the encouragement; I suppose I'll go with "Anglicized" versions of Norman names (so Robert remains Robert, Tancred remains Tancred, etc), Italian versions of Italian names, and native Croat versions of Croatian names. I was having a headache trying to translate and deal with so many Croatian names. I guess I'll use GoogleTranslate for nicknames and such.

Anyway, I'm thinking of having a second PoD; King Demetrius Zvonimir dies a few years earlier, so there's a more chaotic situation in Croatia, and even the Hungarians aren't prepare to seize the throne, but with a bit of luck and all his military experience, Bohemond/Mark is.

Oh, and one last thing; what would be a possible translation of "D'Hautville" into Croatian? Would the Norman king have to make up a new name completely, or is there a way the name could be vaguely preserved? Or maybe something also the lines of "Robertovic"?
 
Despite Marko's compliments I'm not that great with slavic conversions. I agree with him that names would likely be altered to fit eg Stephanos -> St(j)epan. Or perhaps translated wholesale into the local standard.

Despite not being a Croat, the pronunciation is familiar enough to me, so if you two would need help, just ask me.

Oh, and one last thing; what would be a possible translation of "D'Hautville" into Croatian? Would the Norman king have to make up a new name completely, or is there a way the name could be vaguely preserved? Or maybe something also the lines of "Robertovic"?

D'Hautville is "of Hightown", right ? A literal translation of the family name into Croatian would sound something like "Visokgrad", I suppose.
 
PoD of Zvonimir kicking the bucket sometimes earlier is interesting.

If Petike is right that D'Hautville is "of Hightown" the best tranlsation would probably be "od Visokog" or "od Vrhgrada".

I belive norman kings would keep Norman names but would also take a slavic one just like Croat kings did by selecting a christian name but also having a national name. So your Bohmenond/Mark could reign as Mark(o) Krešimir V for example. Robertovići would be a fine name for the bloodline.

If you have any problems with terms and names just post them and I will tranlsalte them to the best of my abilities.


As for the population it is estimated that what is today Croatia and BiH had between 1.5 and 2 mil at the time you are setting your story. So the total number of men that could be put under arms (at least that is how I am reading Konstantins report) could be 160 000, rather than that being the standing army.



Now I have some comments about your chosen PoD.

Why would Zvonimir's earlier death cause chaos when that did not happen OTL? Chaos came 2-3 years later when Stephen II died and there was no clear line of succession to the throne.

Why would Normans attack Croatia? They were their closest ally in the strugle against Byzantium and Venice.

Depending how much earlier Zvonimir kicks the bucket his son might still be alive at that time.

It would be much easier for Bohemond to be named a successor than Normans performing a military action against Croatia while threatened by Venice and Constantinople.

There was a moment when Normans could have conquered Croatia but that was during the end of reign of Peter Krešimir IV, before Zvonimir came to power.



edit@ and if possible avoid wiki on early croatian history since most it is historic myths writen down as official history that is tought in elementary and high schools and has very little to do with what we (as in historians and archaeologists) really know or better to say don't know.
 
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Zioneer

Banned
Well, my idea is that Zvonimir was probably sick the last few years of his OTL life (as many rulers are), and like most nobles, the Croatian nobles would take those last few years to prepare, since a succession is always a messy thing. I may have Stephen II die earlier as well, which is more plausible since he was sickly.

My other thought is that with Croatia descending into civil war earlier, Bohemond/Mark won't bother to quarrel over Sicily with his brother Roger Borsa, and will see a golden opportunity for a (relatively) easy crown. He had a lot of followers and allies in OTL against Roger, and fought a short war over their father's possessions.

So Bohemond, independent of his weak brother, gathers his forces and even hires Venetian or Genoan (or both) mercenaries, paying in gold and promising the Venetians control over more Dalmatian islands (or something like that). He waits until the native Croat contenders have exhausted much of their armies and resources, and attacks one of the recuperating contenders, before moving on to the next one. Basically, he has a ton of luck, just like William the Conqueror before him. And even though he conquers Croatia, he has a lot of trouble; rebellions, foreign policy problems, and so forth.

If that isn't plausible, I could have Bohemond simply marry one of Zvonimir's daughters (if he had one), or Peter Krešimir's daughter (Neda, I think Wiki says her name was).

EDIT: As for the name, I was thinking that Bohemond might want to show just how cleanly he's split from his Sicilo-Norman family by adopting a new surname. Since Norman is a version of Northman, I was thinking [FONT=&quot]Sjeverno (North, right?) might be a good name. If not, I'll stick with Robertovici.[/FONT]
 

abc123

Banned
Basicly, what marko said. If you need any assistance, please be free to ask, I would be very happy to assist you.
Abut normans, Marko could maybe remember attack of Normans where they captured Petar Krešimir IV, around 1070?
Maybe that could be used as POD, where they go and conquer the whole Croatia?
 

abc123

Banned
or Peter Krešimir's daughter (Neda, I think Wiki says her name was).

EDIT: As for the name, I was thinking that Bohemond might want to show just how cleanly he's split from his Sicilo-Norman family by adopting a new surname. Since Norman is a version of Northman, I was thinking [FONT=&quot]Sjeverno (North, right?) might be a good name. If not, I'll stick with Robertovici.[/FONT]

Zvonimir, as far as we know, did not had daughters, but since sources for this period of Croatian history are so scarce, you could make one up, I wouldn't mind you....
About that daughter of Petar Krešimir IV- Neda, I must say that I really haven't heard about her until now- having looked in Šišić now, I don't see that he mentions her...
:confused:

Croatian version of Normans is Normani, you could translate it like Sjeverci, Sjevernjaci, or even take Normani.
 
werent there latin Dalmatians in croatia back then too?
and other romance speaking people such as Istro-Romanians etc.
 
Zvonimir, as far as we know, did not had daughters, but since sources for this period of Croatian history are so scarce, you could make one up, I wouldn't mind you....
About that daughter of Petar Krešimir IV- Neda, I must say that I really haven't heard about her until now- having looked in Šišić now, I don't see that he mentions her...
:confused:

Croatian version of Normans is Normani, you could translate it like Sjeverci, Sjevernjaci, or even take Normani.

Zvonimir had two children - Radovan who died before his father and Klaudija that was married of to an unnamed memeber of the Lapčani tribe.

As far as Neda is concerned she is mentioned but at a later date so we are not 100% if she was a real person or a later intrusion.


I mentioned the attack in my last post but we are not sure who was captured, it is likely it was Krešimir but the king that was captured was not named.


Normans could also be translated as Sjeverljani and there was even a slavic tribe with a very similar name further east that went to form the Bulgarians a few centuries earlier.



There was a romance speaking population variously called by the sources Dalmatinci(Dalmatians)/Latini(Latins)/Romeji(Romans) living in a few coastal comunes and on some of the islands but by the late 11th century lists of names from the said comunes show these coastal towns were allready considerably slavicized and it was only later Venetian occupation that allowed for the survival of Romance populations but in the end caused the disaperence of the local romance speech.

edit@ Istro-Romanians are a much later arrivals during the 16th century
 

Zioneer

Banned
Well, I have good news and bad news. The bad news is that I've figured out that I don't have much enthusiasm for this TL idea. I may actually start it, I may not, but I don't think it will last long.

The good news is that I've figured what kind of TL I do want to write. I think I want to write a TL involving a nation that becomes Byzantine-esque. By this I mean, I want to write about a stable, centralized, bureaucracy-filled Adriatic/Mediterranean facing nation that has distinct offices in their government, distinct military ranks, distinct words for various objects and people, and sounds imperial. I guess Croatia just doesn't feel "imperial" to me. I suppose that could change (my viewpoint, that is), but I honestly don't know how that would happen.
 
Well, I have good news and bad news. The bad news is that I've figured out that I don't have much enthusiasm for this TL idea. I may actually start it, I may not, but I don't think it will last long.

The good news is that I've figured what kind of TL I do want to write. I think I want to write a TL involving a nation that becomes Byzantine-esque. By this I mean, I want to write about a stable, centralized, bureaucracy-filled Adriatic/Mediterranean facing nation that has distinct offices in their government, distinct military ranks, distinct words for various objects and people, and sounds imperial. I guess Croatia just doesn't feel "imperial" to me. I suppose that could change (my viewpoint, that is), but I honestly don't know how that would happen.

Sounds like Venice. :D Except for the Imperial part, even though they were an empire.
I bet you could manipulate a Croatian TL that way, too.
 

Zioneer

Banned
Sounds like Venice. :D Except for the Imperial part, even though they were an empire.
I bet you could manipulate a Croatian TL that way, too.

That's kind of what I was thinking; meld Venice (and a bit of Genoa), Croatia, and the Italo-Normans into one unweldy empire/kingdom. One of the terms I was thinking of making was a term for Bohemond/Mark's personal guards; the guiscardos, after his father.

Of course, I could also make Venice into a true nation-state, though I don't know how that would work (allow non-Venetians to become Doge, maybe?).

EDIT: Oh, and I'm taking inspiration from the "Age of Miracles" TL.
 

Zioneer

Banned
Side note; I've used Wikipedia extensively for info on the Italo-Normans before, but we all know Wiki is not always right. And though I've googled somewhat, I don't know where to look for Italo-Norman info or info about Venice beyond Wikipedia. Are there any specific sites that are useful for either of those two sources? I've already exhausted a few hours on Croatian information, so I don't think I'll need that much more.
 
John Julius Norwich wrote good, informative books on both the Italo-Normans and Venice. His "A History of Venice" is a superb book for the layperson. The latter is probably available in a well stocked public library and often inhabits used book stores.
 
Well, I have good news and bad news. The bad news is that I've figured out that I don't have much enthusiasm for this TL idea. I may actually start it, I may not, but I don't think it will last long.

The good news is that I've figured what kind of TL I do want to write. I think I want to write a TL involving a nation that becomes Byzantine-esque. By this I mean, I want to write about a stable, centralized, bureaucracy-filled Adriatic/Mediterranean facing nation that has distinct offices in their government, distinct military ranks, distinct words for various objects and people, and sounds imperial. I guess Croatia just doesn't feel "imperial" to me. I suppose that could change (my viewpoint, that is), but I honestly don't know how that would happen.

Hmmm.

3 candidates come to mind:
i) A Hungarian Empire (+/- Apulia/Sicily or bits thereof)
ii) A Slav/Serbian Empire (perhaps where Hungary doesn't exist or has collapsed so that Croatia, Dalmatia, etc are up for grabs)
iii) An Apulian/Sicilian Empire with lands across the Adriatic

I have an idea for the 3rd where Manfred gets Sicily and divides his possessions among his sons - his last son Enzio would likely be Prince of Taranto and King of Albania. Get him married off to a Hungarian princess and ramp up the Hungarian Succession crisis et voila.
 
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