Icelandic Commonwealth lasts beyond the 13th century

[Firestorm]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icelandic_Commonwealth

The Icelandic Free State which existed from 930 to 1262 has often been cited as one of the few successful anarchist communities and one of the only ones to exist on a long-term "national" basis. In our timeline it was brought down by clan feuding largely sparked by external meddling from the Norwegian monarchy.
My question to anyone with more knowledge of the period than myself is how long the Commonwealth could have survived independent of Norway and with it’s decentralised, clan-based system. What effects would its survival have on the present-day island and the rest of Europe?

 

[Firestorm]

No takers?

 

[MerryPrankster]

Well, the Norwegians could avoid meddling in Iceland entirely, or their scheming could be foiled somehow.

 

[Smaug]

Small as Iceland is, someone would have eventually found thier way to the top. Just seems like a natural course of events to me.

 

[Redbeard]

"Successful" is hardly the most prescise word as Iceland AFAIK almost got depopulated in clan vendettas. I could well imagine the anarchist struture being an important precondition for this evolving, and thus a precondition for Iceland going on would be some kind of central power emerging - and the "commonwealth" thus disappearing.

But perhaps some kind of religious movement banning vendettas, but that will probably banned by the Catholic Church.

Regards

Steffen Redbeard

 

[MerryPrankster]

I was under the impression that the Catholic Church might disapprove of vendettas.

And Iceland is very far from Rome.

 

[Faeelin]

For some reason, I am amused by an anarchist state that's brought down by internal conflict.

 

[Fabilius]

From the year 1000 Iceland was doomed, cause that's the point that Iceland becomes christian.

Actually, there's no chance of Iceland not becoming christian since after 1000 it will mean less and less trade, and that is necessary when you're a small island.

However if you somehow manage to make the church independent early on, the Icelandic "age of Sturlungs" might not happen. Rural chiefs gained lot of power by making their sons priest and taxating people using the church as an excuse. (Basicly, we need money to keep the church going). The most powerful families were the ones who controlled the bishop estates and church land.

You, can make Iceland remain independent by killing f.x. Þórður Kakali. The man was incredibly lucky, basicly the last remaining family member of the Sturlung family seeking revenge on the "Húnvetningar" who against all odds managed to bring the vendetta to an end by killing Kolbein Tumason and defeating his army using a few volunteers and a small amount of money coming from the royal coffers of Norway.

If Þórður is killed, (rather likely actually), you´ll butterfly me out of existance , and let Iceland remain free for some time. Maybe 50 years before the Norwegians have another good chance.

In all likelyhood Iceland will be under Norway´s sphere of influence or England´s, or possibly the Hansa League. (Which might claim Iceland, and put it under protection for trade purposes).

 

[sunsurf]

From the year 1000 Iceland was doomed, cause that's the point that Iceland becomes christian.

Actually, there's no chance of Iceland not becoming christian since after 1000 it will mean less and less trade, and that is necessary when you're a small island.

So if it does not become Christian it is not doomed?

If it doesn't become Christian it gets less trade, becomes depopulated and the island would remain uninhabited for a few centuries more until it's re-populated by Scandinavians or the British.

How is it doomed when it becomes Christian?

 

[Justin Pickard]

How is it doomed when it becomes Christian?

By becoming Christian, it becomes part of Christendom, and has to play by Christendom's rules, which includes such things as hierarchical power.

 

[Fabilius]

By becoming Christian, it becomes part of Christendom, and has to play by Christendom's rules, which includes such things as hierarchical power.

Excactly. The Church hierarchy broke up the power balance during the twelfth century, eventually leading to the civil war in the 13th.

So basicly to have Icelandic commonwealth lasting, you might need a POD where the church isn´t allowed to own any property. However that´d change to much in Europe for the scenario to pay a lot of attention to a small island in the ocean with 40,000 inhabitants. (Roughly at that time).

One way to avoid the Icelandic commonwealth from collapsing entirely would be to have Norway in a remaining civil war. Norway did have a lot of troubles uniting, often having 2 or more kings for most of 11th, 12th and 13th century. Without Norway uniting, there is no huge power (huge in a relative sense, Norway is a huge power compared to Greenland, Faero islands, Iceland... so on), no huge power that sees the north Atlantic as it´s territory, and the inhabitants of it´s islands as it´s subjects.

That means... we´d need something nasty happening to king Sverrir perhaps. Oddball? Are you listening

Then the Icelanders will have bought some time until the English and the Germans start showing interest. One mustn´t forget that during a century or so the English had more power and authority in Iceland than the Norwegians did. And after them the Hanseatic league aquired monopoly on Iceland´s market. Yet, the English weren´t interested in claiming Iceland under the crown, and the Hansas didn´t have one.

 

[MerryPrankster]

By becoming Christian, it becomes part of Christendom, and has to play by Christendom's rules, which includes such things as hierarchical power.

However, Iceland is very far away from the rest of Christendom. The Church might not be strong enough on the island to put an end to the Icelandic Commonwealth even if most of the inhabitants become Christian.

After all, the Spanish monarchy was quite comfortable ignoring the commands of the Church when it wished.

 

[MerryPrankster]

Excactly. The Church hierarchy broke up the power balance during the twelfth century, eventually leading to the civil war in the 13th.

So basicly to have Icelandic commonwealth lasting, you might need a POD where the church isn´t allowed to own any property. However that´d change to much in Europe for the scenario to pay a lot of attention to a small island in the ocean with 40,000 inhabitants. (Roughly at that time).

Perhaps as part of the settlement that led to the islanders converting to Christianity, the Church is forbidden to own property beyond a certain amount?

 

[Admiral Matt]

I'd go for a much earlier conversion to Christianity.

The Celtic Church in the British Isles was organized around monasteries as opposed to conventional Catholic heirarchies. Unfortunately it was eliminated before Iceland was settled. Let's say there is a lot more resistance to the discarding of Celtic practices in favor of Catholic ones. Parts of western Ireland hold out against change into the early 800s and small numbers of monks with Celtic-Christian sympathies remain scattered among Ireland's monasteries.

One such monk is among the Irish settlers (well, mostly they were servants and slaves, but nevermind) that settled there alongside the Norse. An extremely charismatic and utterly devout individual, he convinces many Icelanders to convert and sets up the new church with as little heirachy as possible.

Instead of pressure to convert to Christianity, there will be pressure to "do it right." Eventually they may give in, but it ought to buy them a couple centuries or so.

 

[Fabilius]

Perhaps as part of the settlement that led to the islanders converting to Christianity, the Church is forbidden to own property beyond a certain amount?

Hmm... yes. Property restriction could work. You´re correct when you point out that Iceland is far from Rome and thus the church could´ve easily been less strong. The thing is though, the pope and the church hierarchy itself had little authority in Iceland before 13th, 14th century. The thing is, the biggest landowners built churches themselves, appointed their sons as priests, and gathered church fees from their churchgoers. (Not a penny actually went to the church outside of Iceland).
If they had been barred from doing so, either by a decree from Althingi or by the church getting stronger sooner and managing to stand on it´s own, Iceland could´ve avoided dividing into factions and as a result, no civil war.

 

[Fabilius]

I'd go for a much earlier conversion to Christianity.

The Celtic Church in the British Isles was organized around monasteries as opposed to conventional Catholic heirarchies. Unfortunately it was eliminated before Iceland was settled. Let's say there is a lot more resistance to the discarding of Celtic practices in favor of Catholic ones. Parts of western Ireland hold out against change into the early 800s and small numbers of monks with Celtic-Christian sympathies remain scattered among Ireland's monasteries.

One such monk is among the Irish settlers (well, mostly they were servants and slaves, but nevermind) that settled there alongside the Norse. An extremely charismatic and utterly devout individual, he convinces many Icelanders to convert and sets up the new church with as little heirachy as possible.

Instead of pressure to convert to Christianity, there will be pressure to "do it right." Eventually they may give in, but it ought to buy them a couple centuries or so.

True. In fact there might not be so much pressure to do it right, because most often Rome just ignored Iceland. (I´ve no idea why ). After the civil war monasteries in Iceland actually blossomed. At least all the sagas were written there.

 

[Firestorm]

I'd go for a much earlier conversion to Christianity.

The Celtic Church in the British Isles was organized around monasteries as opposed to conventional Catholic heirarchies. Unfortunately it was eliminated before Iceland was settled. Let's say there is a lot more resistance to the discarding of Celtic practices in favor of Catholic ones. Parts of western Ireland hold out against change into the early 800s and small numbers of monks with Celtic-Christian sympathies remain scattered among Ireland's monasteries.

One such monk is among the Irish settlers (well, mostly they were servants and slaves, but nevermind) that settled there alongside the Norse. An extremely charismatic and utterly devout individual, he convinces many Icelanders to convert and sets up the new church with as little heirachy as possible.

Instead of pressure to convert to Christianity, there will be pressure to "do it right." Eventually they may give in, but it ought to buy them a couple centuries or so.

Bingo!

Though rather than having western Ireland hold out significantly longer (too many possible butterflies on the mainland), simply transplant the tradition through a bit of island-hopping.
There were a few shortlived Celtic monastaries in the Faeros. Perhaps you could have them last long enough to migrate to Iceland in large enough numbers to have an effect on the island's culture. Being far enough removed from Rome, it could very well go its own way as the rest of Northwest Europe is drawn closer to the Papacy.

 

[Firestorm]

True. In fact there might not be so much pressure to do it right, because most often Rome just ignored Iceland. (I´ve no idea why ). After the civil war monasteries in Iceland actually blossomed. At least all the sagas were written there.

Wouldn't be any English translations of said saga's on the internet would they? I'll have to look into that after I'm done playing with my cousins.

 

[Flocculencio]

Wouldn't be any English translations of said saga's on the internet would they? I'll have to look into that after I'm done playing with my cousins.

Here's a translation of the Grettisaga (Grettir's Saga) about Grettir the Strong. It has a lot of congruencies to Beowulf in parts especially the story of Grettir and Glam which you can find excerpted here). That particular extract makes a pretty good ghost story by itself.

 

[Fabilius]

Here's a translation of the Grettisaga (Grettir's Saga) about Grettir the Strong. It has a lot of congruencies to Beowulf in parts especially the story of Grettir and Glam which you can find excerpted here). That particular extract makes a pretty good ghost story by itself.

Yeah, I´m quite fond of Grettis saga.

The Icelandic sagas have been translated to German, French, English and all the scandinavian languages.

I recommend, Egils saga and of course all the eddic poems if ancient icelandic literature interests you.