Iberic peninsula with berber peoples?

The Ubbergeek · Apr 2, 2012

Random idea based on the obscure pre-roman history of the Iberic Peninsula, and later movements of peoples - the invasion of the muslim forces, ressac and the Sepharades going to Maghreb(?), implying the Columns of Hercules can be crossed easily kinda, and sailing around existed...

Could (or was!) a people of the Berbers familly languages and culture(s) move into Iberia of the distant past (or more recent), and an iberic berber language stay alive or even prosper? Interactions with greeks, the punics, Rome?

altwere · Apr 3, 2012

Most of the moors who went into Spain were Berbers, but Arabic was the language of "god" and the language of the army.
If Berber had been used as the language of government it might have become the language of islamic spain

LSCatilina · Apr 3, 2012

The Ubbergeek said:
Could (or was!) a people of the Berbers familly languages and culture(s) move into Iberia of the distant past (or more recent), and an iberic berber language stay alive or even prosper? Interactions with greeks, the punics, Rome?

You mean, apart Iberic peoples being part of a common linguistic and cultural family with Berbers?

altwere said:
Most of the moors who went into Spain were Berbers, but Arabic was the language of "god" and the language of the army.
If Berber had been used as the language of government it might have become the language of islamic spain

It wasn't the reason of the use of Arabic. After all the kharidjits berbers preached both in Arab and local languages.
For the army, at the contrary, it seems the berber "djunds" kept their language during most of the Al-Andalus history (by exemple, one of the griefs against Almanzor was to have used berber mercenaries that didn't even used Arab as their languages).

In fact, Arab was predominant because it was the language of the ruling elite and that it was a way of social promotion, critically for the hispano-roman population.

Have the Berber revolt of 739/740 being sucessful in Al-Andalus (It could have been if they didn't decided to split their army in three parts) and to manage to stay united after a victory against the wali and you could have, relativly hardly, a Berber and kharidjit elite in Al-Andalus.

Malta · Apr 3, 2012

Possibly during Roman or Pre-Roman times a migration of Berbers into the Iberia. Maybe the Republic pays Berber mercanaries to move in and keep the peace after the Third Punic War.

MNP · Apr 3, 2012

Hmm I wonder how Kharijite theology would react with the Christianity in that situation.

Daeres · Apr 3, 2012

You mean, apart Iberic peoples being part of a common linguistic and cultural family with Berbers?

This. The Iberian languages native to Iberia were related to Berber already. Obviously it gets more complicated when you introduce Celtic languages into the picture, and then the Phoenician colonies, but still.

The Ubbergeek · Apr 3, 2012

Daeres said:
This. The Iberian languages native to Iberia were related to Berber already. Obviously it gets more complicated when you introduce Celtic languages into the picture, and then the Phoenician colonies, but still.

I heard it was still unsure. Not a lot was known of the Iberic peninsula's languages before romans came - and there was probably pre-indo-european but 'european' languages- more like Basque. So, I am not sure it was proved some berber-related languages was spoken. But it is damn possible.

eliphas8 · Apr 3, 2012

I'm pretty sure they did, they where just called Andalusian (after Al-Andalus).

The Ubbergeek · Apr 3, 2012

eliphas8 said:
I'm pretty sure they did, they where just called Andalusian (after Al-Andalus).

Again, arabic was THE language for muslims invaders, and berber probably died then quickly.

LSCatilina · Apr 4, 2012

The Ubbergeek said:
Again, arabic was THE language for muslims invaders, and berber probably died then quickly.

Again No, and No.

1)The Berber was the language of the crushing majority of invaders. Maybe at best 5 000 Arabs with women and children for 10/15 000 Berbers with families.

2)It was still living around the IX, and still after in countryside. Considering the Berber dynasties of Almohads and Almoravids won Spain thanks to massive berber army that stood in Al-Andalus, it's likely the berber language was revived at least during all the end of IX up to the XIII.

altwere · Apr 4, 2012

I agree. most of the islamic invaders were Berbers.
The languages spoken in Iberia before the Romans arrived were from at least three language families. There were at least 2 kinds of Celtic languages, Iberian languages which while poorly known are thought to be related to Basque and Punic which was closely related to hebrew.
Punic was a resent transplant.
Berber is in the same language family as Punic, but the split between the languages is probably close to 5,000 years and Berber is much closer to Coptic.

Guildencrantz · Apr 4, 2012

Maybe if Islam doesn't exist, or spread to North Africa, we might have a Christian Berber invasion of Spain at some point. But of course, how much of an incentive did the Berbers have to invade and settle Iberia without Islam?

Tocomocho · Apr 4, 2012

The Iberian-Berber language connection is way old and pretty much obsolete.

The Ubbergeek · Apr 4, 2012

LSCatilina said:
Again No, and No.

1)The Berber was the language of the crushing majority of invaders. Maybe at best 5 000 Arabs with women and children for 10/15 000 Berbers with families.

2)It was still living around the IX, and still after in countryside. Considering the Berber dynasties of Almohads and Almoravids won Spain thanks to massive berber army that stood in Al-Andalus, it's likely the berber language was revived at least during all the end of IX up to the XIII.

But they turned to arabic in time, due to the nature of the links of Islam with Arabic language.

MNP · Apr 4, 2012

The Ubbergeek said:
But they turned to arabic in time, due to the nature of the links of Islam with Arabic language.

I do think some (but not all and probably not a majority) of the Berbers in the period from 712-1031 Arabized thoroughly. It was likely this lay in gaining more acceptance by the Andalusi and Arab elite since acting Arab, inventing Arab ancestors and speaking Arabic marked you as a classy guy. How much of that was Arabic being the language of the Koran and how much of that was Arabic historically being the language of conquerors and leaders? I am dubious if it had anything to do with Arabic being the language of the Koran. However more Berbers were brought in from Africa after Simancas and I am doubtful these lost their Berber tongue. Certainly the Almoravids and Almohads (and the Marinids) spoke both and I do not believe their North African armies settled that thoroughly in Al-Andalus as to ever lose their native Berber languages.

Though that does bring to mind a question. How much did it effect the Arabization of the Maghreb, when the Andalusi populace decamped from Spain and went to Africa? I have always thought the Almoravids were more of a cause but now I'm wondering.

Note: I edited this post to better clarify my thinking which is why it doesn't match The Ubbergeek's quote. Sorry for any confusion!

The Ubbergeek · Apr 4, 2012

MNP said:
I do think some (but not all) of the Berbers in the period from 712-1031 Arabized thoroughly. However more were brought in from Africa after Simancas and I am doubtful these lost their Berber tongue. Certainly the Almoravids and Almohads (and the Marinids) spoke both and I do not believe their North African armies settled that thoroughly in Al-Andalus as to ever lose their native Berber languages.

At least, i see a diglosia(?) - Arabic as the prestige and ruling language, and Berber amingst the invaders and descendants. The former slowly 'inking down' and everyone speaking it.

Also of course that Mozzarabic language...

MNP · Apr 4, 2012

The Ubbergeek said:
At least, i see a diglosia(?) - Arabic as the prestige and ruling language, and Berber amingst the invaders and descendants. The former slowly 'inking down' and everyone speaking it.

My thinking on this is that a transition would only happen when the individual group actually had a chance to social climb but not before.

But I don't know.

The Ubbergeek · Apr 4, 2012

MNP said:
My thinking on this is that a transition would only happen when the individual group actually had a chance to social climb but not before.

But I don't know.

Again, you forget the religious importance of Arabic - in theory, you should NEVER translate the Quran by example, and you recitate it by memory in ARABIC, if you can and have no Quran in paper.

Sadly, a damn lot of cultures who had not a strong literary side and 'creed' when converted to Islam turned to speaking Arabic one day. Persia/Iran being a strong litterature source and 'pole culture' survived and Iranian languages still exist, strong for much of them, turkish for being a 'warrior 'race'' and might state(s) (Ottomans), etc. But Berber languages like Kabyle actually where having a lower status in Maghreb, by example.

And minorities's ones.... Coptic by example became a 'dead' language of litturgy in christians of Egypt.