I see lots of people are posting "Singapore holds" TLs, so I thought I'd ask...

Markus

Banned
While I grant wikipedia is an iffy source, take a look here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_occupation_of_the_Philippines

The Philippines came pretty close to liberating themselves in OTL. Japanese control was, as in much of China, limited to urban areas, military complexes, and key logistic routes.

Pretty hard for a resistance movement to do much more than that.

Urban areas, military complexes, and key logistic routes are all that matters militarily. Partisans in a backwater have little effect.


Have the forts in Manila Bay ignore Wainwright's surrender orders.

Corregidor was the most powerful and it had been taken rather easily. The game in Luzon was over by the time Bataan was lost. The US might have tried something in Mindanao but they were even weaker there.
 
Urban areas, military complexes, and key logistic routes are all that matters militarily. Partisans in a backwater have little effect.

Assuming you have an outside source of supply, yes. Assuming you're just trying to deny the territory to your enemy and not make full use of it yourself, yes.
 

Cook

Banned
And the hoary old myth about Singapore's batteries only being able to fire seaward is just that, a hoary old myth.
But the hoary old myth about them having only armour piercing rounds instead of High explosive is entirely true; armour piercing rounds just bury themselves deep in the mangrove swamp before exploding.

But back to Corrigidor…

my reading of Toland "Rising Sun", and "Not in Shame" as well as "Corrigidor, Saga of a Fortress" and the US Army official history is that Corrigidor was nearly out of food when the Japanese launched their final assault.

So you need significantly better staff work by the US Army (specifically McArthur) to ensure that it has the food needed to hold out for 12 months.


This was the same problem on the Bataan Peninsular; McArthur failed to move large amounts of supplies out of warehouses in Manila because of a concern such a move would panic the civilian population. By the time that ceased to be a consideration it was too late to get much out.

Anyway, the best way to hold Corregidor is to hold Bataan.

Which is a larger version of the same problem without the benefit of water between you and the screaming hoards of the Emperor.

Basically, if MacArthur had allowed/encouraged the moving of stores forward, Bataan could have held out quite a bit longer, and then Corrigidor beyond that. Maybe.
Could they hold out until relief came? probably not.


No way anyone is holding out in the PI for 2 or 3 years.
Let’s call that a no.
The Philippines came pretty close to liberating themselves in OTL.
I would take that with a very large pinch of salt Grid, resistance armies were a nuisance, but without external help they seldom amounted to a force that could defeat occupying armies.
Contrary to popular belief, the Yugoslavian partisans did not drive the Germans out of their country and neither did the Greek partisans.
 
While I grant wikipedia is an iffy source, take a look here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_occupation_of_the_Philippines

The Philippines came pretty close to liberating themselves in OTL. Japanese control was, as in much of China, limited to urban areas, military complexes, and key logistic routes.

Pretty hard for a resistance movement to do much more than that.

From the article.

"The American troops on it's recapture pumped two parts Diesel oil and one part gasoline into mortar pits, stood off, and ignited it with tracer bullets. A similar technique at Fort Drum used air vents on the top deck, but a timed fuse was used rather than tracer fire. On ignition this annihilated the remaining Japanese. With the bay forts neutralized, including Fort Drum, Japanese resistance in the Manila Bay area was ended. The ruins of Fort Drum, including its disabled turrets and 14 inch guns, remain at the mouth of Manila Bay."

Nasty stuff.
Wouldnt have liked to have been in there.
 

Markus

Banned
Originally Posted by Don Lardo
Anyway, the best way to hold Corregidor is to hold Bataan.
Which is a larger version of the same problem without the benefit of water between you and the screaming hoards of the Emperor.




There are less than four miles of water between Bataan and Corregidor. Any 75mm gun has a longer range. The Bataan peninsula was much easier to defend:

Formed by the southern heights of the Zambales Mountains, the Bataan peninsula juts out from the mainland of Luzon between Subic and Manila Bay like a huge thumb pointing at the shore of Cavite Province only twelve miles away. Between Bataan and the Cavite shore lie Corregidor and several smaller islands, guarding the entrance to Manila Bay. (Map 10)
Only twenty-five miles long and twenty miles wide across its base, Bataan is ideally suited for defensive warfare. It is jungled and mountainous, cut by numerous streams and deep ravines, and has only two roads adequate for motor vehicles. Dominating the peninsula are two extinct volcanoes: the 4,222-foot high Mt. Natib in the north and, to the south, the Mariveles Mountains whose highest peak, Mt. Bataan, towers to a height of 4,722 feet. Along the east coast, on the Manila Bay side, the peninsula is flat and swampy near its base but becomes hilly and rugged to the south. The coastal plain on the west is extremely narrow. Here the mountains extend almost to the sea; high cliffs guard the shore and toothlike promontories jut into the water. Radiating from the two volcanic masses flow many streams which wind their way through steep ravines and gullies toward the bay and the sea. ... more info

bataan.jpg
 

Cook

Banned
Well that’s just great Markus but as I said, it’s just a bigger version of the same problem; you have more troops to supply, a longer perimeter to defend, no air support, rapidly dwindling ammunition and no four mile gap between you and the nasty little psychopaths you want to see how far they can drive their bayonet into your sternum.

But other than that it looks like summer camp.
:)
 

Markus

Banned
Except that the stretch of water actually offered not protection at all. Tactically this was a river-crossing operation like the landings on Singapore or Messina Strait, not something like Operation S....n.

Even with a sufficiently large and well equipped force -which wasn´t there- you clould not hold the fortress. Enemy artillery would shell every inch of it 24/7. Corregigor´s fatal weakness was dictated by the geography, something one can not change. Bataan was the opposite. If MacFool had stuck to WPO3 or at least made plans to use this plan as a "Plan B", the Allies could have held the peninsula for many more months. IOTL they actually managed to fight the Japanese to a standstill. Pretty impressive considering the weakness of the allied ground forces and the botched retreat.
 

Cook

Banned
Except that the stretch of water actually offered not protection at all. Tactically this was a river-crossing operation like the landings on Singapore or Messina Strait, not something like Operation S....n.

I think you misunderstood my point. I don’t think Bataan or Corregidor could be held, but on Corregidor you at least have the respite that the Japanese gentlemen are going to have to make a major assault; they aren’t just going to jump out of a trench twenty five metres from you and come at you in a screaming horde anytime of the day or night; or crawl into your pit in the middle of the night to shave you neck with their bayonet.
 

Markus

Banned
I think you misunderstood my point. I don’t think Bataan or Corregidor could be held, but on Corregidor you at least have the respite that the Japanese gentlemen are going to have to make a major assault; they aren’t just going to jump out of a trench twenty five metres from you and come at you in a screaming horde anytime of the day or night; or crawl into your pit in the middle of the night to shave you neck with their bayonet.

I see it the other way round. Corregidor is so small that they can blanked it with artillery fire and knock out it´s defences in a day or two - which they did IOTL. After that Corregidor is gelded, ships could sail into Manila Bay.

Bataan is so big even the Soviet artillery could not blanket it, plus not even a Long Tom could reach the southern tip of Bataan, much less
Corregidor. Ohh, and the IJA had nothing even close to a Long Tom.

Yes, the Japanese can jump into your trench at night BUT even the ill-trained, ill-supplied allied forces from OTL managed to stop them for a while. An allied force that has prepared plans for a last stand on Bataan could hold out much longer, tie down more enemy forces and deny Manila Bay to the enemy. Mission accomplished!
 
To Begin with Fort Drum (the Concrete Battleship) was equipped with 14 inch guns not 15 inch. There were no Lee tanks in the Philippines during this time period. There were some M-3 Stuarts.
In order for the Island to hold out it would need more of the following :food, Medical supplies ,munitions and additional infantry to defend the beaches. It might have been possible to gain the infantry by moving forces from Bataan before it fell.
The entire defense of the islands was a series of mistakes. MacArthur command failed to issue the orders to move the food and munitions to Bataan
this resulted in a weakening of the ability forces to be able to resist. The insistance on written orders meant that nothing was able to get done.
 
Back to the topic, Corregidor holding would seriously screw up the Japanese war plans. That's considering that the fort covered the entrance to Manila Bay. However, there may come a point where the fort is rendered useless when it has run out of ammunition. In a siege, food and water are not the only necessities.
It would also have a major [Bad] effect on US planning. As long as it holds, The public will be demanding the US go rescue the Troops.
 

Geon

Donor
Corregidor

Corregidor was doomed regardless of how well or how poorly General MacArthur conducted the defense of the Phillippines. The fact of the matter was that the Rock only had a limited amount of food and ammunition. Even if MacArthur had managed to take crates of food that were on the docks when he evacuated the mainland with him he would have bought only a few more months of time. There was no way that the U.S.N. could have resupplied Corregidor or Luzon for any time in the forseeable future. Most of the battleships in the Pacific Fleet had been sunk. A large number of the cruisers in the South Pacific squadron were gone. The U.S.N. was not going to risk it's three carriers left in the Pacific on a suicide run to resupply Corregidor. Submarines could have brought in a limited amount of supplies but only by stripping themselves of all weapons and leaving themselves open to attacks so again you have a suicide run.

The only way you could have Corregidor hold is for their to be a less catastrophic Pearl Harbor.

Geon
 

Art

Monthly Donor
Pearl Harbor was "catastophic", but not as much as people think...

Total losses U. S.

4 battleships sunk, but only 2 destroyed permamently Arizona and Oklahoma, and the target ship Utah.
4 battleships damaged including 1 run aground :Nevada was run aground
2 destroyers sunk, 1 damaged
1 other ship sunk, 3 damaged
3 cruisers damaged[nb 1]

188 aircraft destroyed
155 aircraft damaged,



I'm a "Wake Island holds" sort of person. I didn't know Bataan was a good place to hold out, but I did know that McArthur was a fool from Costello's book Day's of Infamy, being about the B-17s he allowed to be destroyed for the bribe, the asshole!
 

Markus

Banned
...but I did know that McArthur was a fool from Costello's book Day's of Infamy, being about the B-17s he allowed to be destroyed for the bribe, the asshole!

mac was bribed to allow the japanese to destroy his air force? that sounds like a conspiracy theory. he was a foll, a rather big one but comitting treason sounds far fetched.
 

Bearcat

Banned
mac was bribed to allow the japanese to destroy his air force? that sounds like a conspiracy theory. he was a foll, a rather big one but comitting treason sounds far fetched.

He did accept a payment from the Filipino government, which was certainly unethical since he had been reactivated into the US Army. And he did strangely and inexplicably do very little, apparently hoping the PI would not be attacked after Pearl.

But none of that really rises to the level of proof of bribery or treason.

Being a clueless (at times) shithead with dubious ethics, okay.
 
I would take that with a very large pinch of salt Grid, resistance armies were a nuisance, but without external help they seldom amounted to a force that could defeat occupying armies.
Contrary to popular belief, the Yugoslavian partisans did not drive the Germans out of their country and neither did the Greek partisans.

I'm not all that sure that's such an exaggeration. The island of Mindanao was practically run by the Filipino resistance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendell_Fertig
 

Art

Monthly Donor
Yeah. I read that Fertig had an army...

of 30,000 men under arms, and the fact that he indepedently got together this force, when that ASS McArthur had catagorically said that there was no posibility of guerilla resistance in the Philippines, was a terrible shock to McArthur. He never forgave Fertig for that. Am reading the Wiki Article on Fertig and am amazed... lord but he was effective. They didn't control 95% of Mindanao... Damn. He was not made a Brigadier for his efforts, and he should have been.
 

The Sandman

Banned
Have MacArthur fall out of his tank and get run over during the assault on the Bonus Army. Or have him quietly murdered some time in 1932-33 by a WWI vet with a grudge over the Bonus Army thing.

Now what are the chances of Bataan+Corregidor holding at least into late '42?
 
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