I really never liked that brat

Franz Josif was not really in love with his elder son, and expecially he disliked his wife very much.
Not many know that, in order to marry her, Franz Ferdinand was forced to take an oath regarding denying succession rights to their children.
In practice, Franz Ferdinand was the official heir to Franz Josef, but Franz Ferdinand's sons would not be included in the dynastic succession.
This certainly diminuished very much his importance for Austria-Hungary.

Also, Franz Josif was cernaily not keen in waging a war, even a limited one to Serbia ("I know what a bloodshed war is, I have been at Solferino", he used to say to his prime minister when the latter urged him to take action).
On the other hand (politics is politics) he certainly wanted to gain something from the thing.

Thus, let suppose he explicitly imposes a policy aimed at gaining something from the Sarajevo murder without triggering a war.

What's the maximum that Austria-Hungary could ask?
How to re-formulate the Ulimatum to get it?
What could be the sensible diplomatic step to take?
 
You are aware that Franz-Ferdinand was Franz-Josef's nephew and not his son. It would almost appear that a lot more people know about the Habsburg Dynasty than you do.
 
It would almost appear that a lot more people know about the Habsburg Dynasty than you do.
How rude - it would almost appear that a lot more people known about good manners than you do.

Irrespective of family relationships, probably the old Emperor-King wouldn't be keen to push the issue to the possibility of war. I think the question is what could he do to 'save face' in a way that would be acceptable to Wilhelm II. Very little room for manoevure, IMHO.
 
You are aware that Franz-Ferdinand was Franz-Josef's nephew and not his son. It would almost appear that a lot more people know about the Habsburg Dynasty than you do.
Regarding their parental relation, you're right and I'm sorry for the mistake.
(Regarding the other thing there is really no point in answering)
Anyway, the hypothesis remain plausible, don't you think?
 
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Blair152

Banned
Franz Josif was not really in love with his elder son, and expecially he disliked his wife very much.
Not many know that, in order to marry her, Franz Ferdinand was forced to take an oath regarding denying succession rights to their children.
In practice, Franz Ferdinand was the official heir to Franz Josef, but Franz Ferdinand's sons would not be included in the dynastic succession.
This certainly diminuished very much his importance for Austria-Hungary.

Also, Franz Josif was cernaily not keen in waging a war, even a limited one to Serbia ("I know what a bloodshed war is, I have been at Solferino", he used to say to his prime minister when the latter urged him to take action).
On the other hand (politics is politics) he certainly wanted to gain something from the thing.

Thus, let suppose he explicitly imposes a policy aimed at gaining something from the Sarajevo murder without triggering a war.

What's the maximum that Austria-Hungary could ask?
How to re-formulate the Ulimatum to get it?
What could be the sensible diplomatic step to take?
I know very little about World War I. Except that the Austro-Hungarian Empire was weak and Franz Ferdinand was against reforming the imperial
government. Franz Josef wanted to reform the Austro-Hungarian Empire,
which his uncle, Franz Josef, didn't want. Neither did the Serbians. That's why they were so eager to use Gavrilo Princip and his friends, to
assassinate Franz Ferdinand.
 
Probably, but once the bullet left the gun, what Serbia wanted or did not want amounted to a very insignificant thing
The so-called secret treaties were well-known, and each power had at least a rough idea of how other powers would respond.
Thus the question remains:
What could Austria-Hungary get without triggering the russian mobilitation?
What were the most sensible steps to get it?
 
I think you're also mistaken about the relationship between Franz Josef and Elisabeth. Their relationship had its share of strains, to be sure, many engendered by her own eccentric personality, but he deeply loved her and he was devastated when she was murdered.

As to the relationship between Franz Josef and Franz Ferdinand, I've commented on this in several threads (see Hobelhouse's for example); they were never very close - not least because they really didn't have that much in common - but they respected each other and were always civil, even if FJ sometimes found FF's passionate advocacy of his views at their meetings to be something of a trial.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
I know very little about World War I. Except that the Austro-Hungarian Empire was weak and Franz Josef was against reforming the imperial
government. Franz Ferdinand wanted to reform the Austro-Hungarian Empire,
which his uncle, Franz Josef, didn't want.
Corrected, free of charge.
 
I know very little about World War I. Except that the Austro-Hungarian Empire was weak and Franz Ferdinand was against reforming the imperial
government. Franz Josef wanted to reform the Austro-Hungarian Empire,
which his uncle, Franz Josef, didn't want. Neither did the Serbians. That's why they were so eager to use Gavrilo Princip and his friends, to
assassinate Franz Ferdinand.

Well, it wasn't so much reform in itself - the Serbs didn't much care about the Bohemians, for example - or Franz Ferdinand per se, but it was the issue of Bosnia that sent them nuts. I think Princip & Co. would have just as cheerfully gone after any other members of the Austro-Hungarian Imperial family that happened to presented themselves within reach of their automatics and bombs.
 
I think you're also mistaken about the relationship between Franz Josef and Elisabeth. Their relationship had its share of strains, to be sure, many engendered by her own eccentric personality, but he deeply loved her and he was devastated when she was murdered.

You mean Sophie? (FF's wife, murdered at Sarajevo)
Or Sissi? (FJ's wife, murdered at Geneve)

( Asburgo did not bring luck to their wives, do they? :) )
 
You mean Sophie? (FF's wife, murdered at Sarajevo)
Or Sissi? (FJ's wife, murdered at Geneve)

( Asburgo did not bring luck to their wives, do they? :) )

Sisi! (The popular 1950's trilogy of movies starring Romy Schneider spelled it with two "s", but I think it's more properly spelled with one).

As for Sophie, FJ came to respect her very much, and in the last years did all he could to enhance her social position within the rigid bounds of Habsburg protocol.
 
IIRC FF was keen in introducing a third partnership in the empire (there were some talks about "adding a third head to the eagle"), bringing in generically defined "slavs" in the government in addition to austrian and hungarians.
I don't know his exact definition of "slavs", but I think he meant croates and slovenes.
This was certainly bad news to serbia, as it would have drown away support from its idea of becoming an attractor for "southern slaves".

However, I think that ultimately what serbia cared or hoped amounted to almost nothing in the grand scheme of things, and tha main point determining the successive developments was if Russia would feel irked by austrian requests or not
 
As for Sophie, FJ came to respect her very much, and in the last years did all he could to enhance her social position within the rigid bounds of Habsburg protocol.

Since the couple married just a couple years after Elizabeth was murdered, maybe he was in a bad mood.
However still 14 years later, their marriage remained morganatic.

Regarding Elizabeth, I am afraid that "Sissi" and "Cecco Beppe" (Sisi and Franz Josef) were famous in my country, but with adulterate names
 
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