I Just Read 1984

[catboy637]

And two things occured to me!
1.Big Brother LOOKS JUST LIKE Oswald Mosley. Look, see for yourself. Now, I realize, as of 1941, he would be 45. I will explain my theroy later.
2. You can defy the Party with this logic. The Party's ultimate world is 'no oppisition, total counqering'. If there is nothing beside the Party, how is there a Party? If you remove every color except blue, how is there color, or blue? If Oceania counqered the world, how would there be anything beside Ocenia? The party must either be non-exisitent, or allow oppisition, whicjh will ventually destroy it. The Party is self destructive.
My theroy is that Britan sufferd the Revolution in 1941 or so, due to Germany not alling with Japan or attacking Russia. Britan becomes a toliterian, fascist state under Mosley. He later becomes 'Big Brother'.
What do you think?

 

[BlackWave]

And two things occured to me!
1.Big Brother LOOKS JUST LIKE Oswald Mosley. Look, see for yourself. Now, I realize, as of 1941, he would be 45. I will explain my theroy later.
2. You can defy the Party with this logic. The Party's ultimate world is 'no oppisition, total counqering'. If there is nothing beside the Party, how is there a Party? If you remove every color except blue, how is there color, or blue? If Oceania counqered the world, how would there be anything beside Ocenia? The party must either be non-exisitent, or allow oppisition, whicjh will ventually destroy it. The Party is self destructive.
My theroy is that Britan sufferd the Revolution in 1941 or so, due to Germany not alling with Japan or attacking Russia. Britan becomes a toliterian, fascist state under Mosley. He later becomes 'Big Brother'.
What do you think?

The book version, IIRC, describes him as someone different.

Personally, if you assume the three powers in the book actually exist, and Oceania isn't just limited to England, as the case may be, some believe that the turning point is no Normandy landings, which allow the Soviets to sweep through Europe (forming Eurasia) and then the US swallows up South America, the UK, and Africa. This is alluded to in Goldstein's book--which, tbf, may be a party product.

 

[catboy637]

Actually, it is. O'Brien says he "helped write it".

 

[Sachyriel]

The party is to gain privileges. Proles are not Party Members and therefore get worse rations and are oppressed more heavily than Outer Party members and the Inner Party gets the best stuff because it is in fact the ruling elite. The Party is just a twisted version "I'm patriotic!", and the closer you are the being on the inside the better stuff you get.

 

[hopper2cool]

It's really hard to tell what is the truth in 1984 but here is my theory.
Oceania, Eastasia, and Eurasia do exist and do control most (or maybe all of the Earth). They do fight but don't really have wars. There is always an army fighting both the other forces.
The reasons for this is that while there are the three powers they are basicly working together. They might even be the same govt. The War justifies basicly everything.
This also gives the govt or govts a lot of trained soldiers. Even if Britain left Oceania then Big Brother would just bring in soldiers from the Eastasia and Eurasia fronts to stop any revolution.
I don't believe that it's just Britain. First the book does mention people from North and South America. But mainly because unless the entire world is screwed up there is no way that the scam would be kept going for 40 or more years. The lack of any Radio Free Europe broadcasting into Airship One is pretty strong evidence that all of Europe (at least) is just as bad off as Britain.

 

[rcduggan]

If there is nothing beside the Party, how is there a Party? If you remove every color except blue, how is there color, or blue? If Oceania counqered the world, how would there be anything beside Ocenia? The party must either be non-exisitent, or allow oppisition, whicjh will ventually destroy it.

I really don't understand what you are trying to say here. It seems to be an attempt to voice a complex theory, but it just falls in on itself. The Party may base its control on war rationing and protective measures, but it does allow opposition, namely Eurasia and or Eastasia.
And anyway, I thought the point of the Party was that it was to some extent self-aware, and had too much momentum to be stopped.

\The lack of any Radio Free Europe broadcasting into Airship One is pretty strong evidence that all of Europe (at least) is just as bad off as Britain.

Although presumably the British government has some way of blocking radio transmissions. Or maybe they no longer use radio, eschewing it in favor of another band? (I haven't read it in a long time.)
Another thing - to put things in perspective, how many average North Koreans have the means of accessing Western counter propaganda?

 

[Fiji]

Just the other day, I was musing about 1984 and brave new world.
Brave new world left me feeling rather indifferent.
OK, nice thought exercise but nothing more. There are many holes to poke in BNW. And, if needs be, there are ways to extract ones self from society.

But 1984 scared the hell out of me. I too, like the OP, felt a need to go find holes in the structure.
The OPs solution of the party becoming moot once it has full control, is actually even scarier then the book. It would be the final stroke of genius for the party. Existing and controling (utterly and fully) without people realising it existed.
To put it another way, which is worse? Being without freedom (*) and knowing it (like the protagonist) or being without freedom and NOT knowing (like the protagonist on the last page).

Are you, in the latter case, even still human? You're basically just a mindless cell in the greater body (ooooh, Borg)

(*) oddly enough i started typing "information" iso "freedom" ... how odd that my mind would subconsciously equate the two

 

[Deleted member 5719]

Hi Catboy, are you reading Will Ritson's thread "Tales from Oceania"?

It explains a theory that Airstrip 1 is actually a European North Korea, that Eastasia and Eurasia don't really exist.

It's the best thread being written on here at the moment (with the possible exception of "No Spanish Civil War" by Doctor Strangelove).

 

[I Blame Communism]

My theory was always that there never was a Big Brother or that he
's based on a real person now dead. "Big Brother will never die": because he's just a fiction used by the Party to focus loyalty. If they wrote Goldstein's Book, they probably also invented Goldstein.

 

[Thinker1200]

The 1984 climax of control without knowledge is every single dictators wet-dream. I mean when i read that the first time, at the end my blood was on fire. I seriously wanted to go to that world with a few modern nukes and blast the unholy shit out of the Inner Party members.
BTW i think that the Proles are less oppressed than the Outer Party, i mean the proles can get away with cussing out the monitor guys on the other end of the tele-screens.

 

[The Red]

And two things occured to me!
1.Big Brother LOOKS JUST LIKE Oswald Mosley. Look, see for yourself. Now, I realize, as of 1941, he would be 45. I will explain my theroy later.
2. You can defy the Party with this logic. The Party's ultimate world is 'no oppisition, total counqering'. If there is nothing beside the Party, how is there a Party? If you remove every color except blue, how is there color, or blue? If Oceania counqered the world, how would there be anything beside Ocenia? The party must either be non-exisitent, or allow oppisition, which will ventually destroy it. The Party is self destructive.
My theroy is that Britan sufferd the Revolution in 1941 or so, due to Germany not alling with Japan or attacking Russia. Britan becomes a toliterian, fascist state under Mosley. He later becomes 'Big Brother'.
What do you think?

I always presumed it went something like this(That is if the 3 superpowers exist which I seriously doubt)

Part 1

1940-Lord Halifax becomes British Prime Minister and makes a peace agreement with Germany.Germany can have Europe as its sphere of influence as long as it doesnt interfere with Britian or the Empire.

In June 1941 the invasion of the Soviet Union goes ahead,although many troops are held up in France because of an increasingly rearming Britian there are still slightly more German divisions than OTL.

With rapid progress in The Soviet Uniopn being made by Germany and British colonies now acting the same way as the Vichy ones are; Japan decides not to strike at Asia but at Siberia,in September the Kwangtung army initiate Operation Sunset.Although Sunset takes up a large portion of the Japnese army it has very little progress due to poor tactics and equipment compared to the the well prepared Soviets who have expected this attack since June.By December Stalin is able to pull back most of his divisions and launch a counter offensive in the West due to the war in the east basically descending into trench warfare.

All through 1942 FDR pushes for more aid to the Soviets and by August manages to get his Lend Lease act passed.Whilst the Far East continues to be stalemate the Soviets in December manage to crush the German offensive at Stalingrad and encircle.By 1943 the battle of Stalingrad is finally over scoring a massive victory for the Soviets,the Soviets manage another success at Kursk the following summer.As the war rages on on through into 1944 American and German ships and submarines enter into a quasi-war in the Atlantic with American convoys to the Soviets being attacked.This reaches its peak in October 1944 where a convoy carrying mainly young nurses is sunk just outside Icelandic waters,congress agrees to a declaration of War the following month.

Although Halifax had easily been re-elected in 1940 as "the saviour of our sacred isles" his popularity had steadily declined ever since.He had not broken his promise in getting Britian truly ready for war but his lack of action against the evident brutality of the Germans loses him the election of May 1945 to Clemeny Attlee with a massive Labour swing.

Attlee immediately begins cooperating with the Americans and begins to send aid to the Soviets as well who are by the summer of 1945 closing on Warsaw.

In September 1945 Anglo-American forces begin the controversial occupation of Iceland leading to the first ever naval clash between British and German ships.After an Abwher attempt on his life in January 1946 Attlee enters the war.

Meanwhile in Chiona things are going well the Japanese have barely moved since the winter of 1941 and with the bulk of Japanese forces caught up in Siberiathe Chinese manage to lauch 2 successfull offensives in 1944-45 and by the start of 1946 stand poised to retake all of the mainland by the end of the year.Chang Kai Seks grip has become increasingly tighter as one of the only two states fighting the Japanese and the only one actually advancing against them his popularity has soared along with his ego.His grip becomes increasingly totalitarian.

By March 1946 the Soviets have finally surrounded Berlin and pushed the Wermacht back to the Rhine.Despearate to make peace with the west the Germans unleash there last playing card-The first German Atomic bomb is dropped on Colchester in April 1946.Both shocked and enraged the Anglo-Americans get full support to begin the Manhattan project.In September the Soviets take Paris and have reached the bottom of the Italian boot,the Chinese have retaken parts of their east coast as well as beginning a headlong offensive into Manchuria leading to the Japanese recalling a large amount of the Kwantung army from Siberia.The Germans finally surrender in November after the last remnants of the German government flee to Spain.

As the Spring of 1947 blossoms the Soviets begin their last two offensives:The liberation of Siberia and the Invasion of Spain.Although the Soviets are now incredibly war weary both are astonishing successes due to the Japanese underestimating the timing of the Soviet attack and the Spanish although expecting the attack were still reeling from the destruction of the Spanish Civil War by the end of Spring both are complete with the Soviets in complete control of Europe and the Chinese in control of Manchuria.A year long campaign of savage Soviet bombing ensues which includes the dropping of a captured German atom bomb which had been captured at the Kaiser Wilhelm institute before it could be properly destroyed.In October the Japanese finally capitulate.

The War is ended.

 

[catboy637]

The idea is: If there is nothing, in reality, besides the Party, the Party does not ezist.

 

[The Red]

The idea is: If there is nothing, in reality, besides the Party, the Party does not ezist.

The Pary exists but it also doesnt exist,they have complete control over Winstons reality at the end.Like when the moment O'Brien floats several feet over the ground reminding Winston that the party may control the Laws of Gravity at will.

 

[Leistungsfähiger Amerikan]

The idea is: If there is nothing, in reality, besides the Party, the Party does not ezist.

This was discussed in the book, though. During the interogation scene, the main baddie(I forget his name) tells the main goodie(I forget his name, too) about the nations. He says that none of the nations actually intend to take control of the Earth, the just fight the endless wars to keep their population in control. This is done by using up resources that could get the population in better circumstances, which would make them more prone to revolt, and by giving them a foreign enemy to distract them from domestic problems. This is the significance of the three nations; if one does too well, the other two will ally against it. Therefore, there is an unending stalemate.

 

[hopper2cool]

Although presumably the British government has some way of blocking radio transmissions. Or maybe they no longer use radio, eschewing it in favor of another band? (I haven't read it in a long time.)
Another thing - to put things in perspective, how many average North Koreans have the means of accessing Western counter propaganda?

North Korea is a pretty good parrallel but I think it is far worse for Airstrip One. To the best of my knowledge Kim Jong-il doesn't try to hide the year at least.
It is possible that France, Europe, and the rest of the world is more or less OK. However I think it's more likely that Big Brother really does control 1/4 of the world with the other 2 powers control most of the rest of the world. Mainly because it would be far more depressing and 1984 is nothing if not depressing.
That is why 1984 threads keep coming up because you really don't know what is going on. Big Brother controlling just Britain to the entire world are all possible.

 

[Ivan Druzhkov]

Incidentally, catboy, scholars have also suggested that Big Brother also references to Josef Stalin and Lord Kitchener, if that's of any help. You might also want to take a look at Theodore Judson's Fitzpatrick's War, which suggests that some of the results of 1984 can be achieved with a small population of self-righteous rural-idealist bigots rather than with the apparatus of a modern totalitarian state (though Judson does cheat with some super-technology).

For myself, I don't understand why people keep trying to imagine scenarios where the Party system does not engulf the world, or ones where the Party is overthrown at some future date. I find that the novel's greatest power is derived, not from its depiction of totalitarianism (which, in the real world, is a far more flexible and subtle creature that Orwell makes it out to be), but from its articulation of a private nightmare of modern society. The world of 1984 is a world where the "soul," the "personal will," call it what you will, does not exist. However, the Party did not kill it; rather the Party discovered that if you dig down and probe and torture hard enough, you will discover nothing more than an either-or/action-reaction system hardwired into each and every one of us to ensure our continued personal survival. That's it. The purpose of Room 101 is to educate the prisoner of this fact, to show him by breaking them down to the point when they realize that they will do anything, kill anyone, rape anything, accept any order, ignore any contradiction, spit on every cherished ideal, trample every virtue just so he won't have to die. Once that realization is made, the battle is over. The prisoner cannot construct any other belief system, because all would require embracing some ideal that has been discredited by the revelation, and they cannot stand alone, for without some structure they are little more that an ant without a colony and have no reason to exist, which would also contradict the fear of death that the revelation illuminates for him. The only choice is to submit to Big Brother and the Party, a structure that has existed since time immemorial, a fortress against the void, and a community that will keep you alive while keeping you busy with patching up the walls. That's why 1984 is a scray book; it shows us the victory of nothing. Faced with that, how can fan works possibly compete?

 

[Thinker1200]

Incidentally, catboy, scholars have also suggested that Big Brother also references to Josef Stalin and Lord Kitchener, if that's of any help. You might also want to take a look at Theodore Judson's Fitzpatrick's War, which suggests that some of the results of 1984 can be achieved with a small population of self-righteous rural-idealist bigots rather than with the apparatus of a modern totalitarian state (though Judson does cheat with some super-technology).

For myself, I don't understand why people keep trying to imagine scenarios where the Party system does not engulf the world, or ones where the Party is overthrown at some future date. I find that the novel's greatest power is derived, not from its depiction of totalitarianism (which, in the real world, is a far more flexible and subtle creature that Orwell makes it out to be), but from its articulation of a private nightmare of modern society. The world of 1984 is a world where the "soul," the "personal will," call it what you will, does not exist. However, the Party did not kill it; rather the Party discovered that if you dig down and probe and torture hard enough, you will discover nothing more than an either-or/action-reaction system hardwired into each and every one of us to ensure our continued personal survival. That's it. The purpose of Room 101 is to educate the prisoner of this fact, to show him by breaking them down to the point when they realize that they will do anything, kill anyone, rape anything, accept any order, ignore any contradiction, spit on every cherished ideal, trample every virtue just so he won't have to die. Once that realization is made, the battle is over. The prisoner cannot construct any other belief system, because all would require embracing some ideal that has been discredited by the revelation, and they cannot stand alone, for without some structure they are little more that an ant without a colony and have no reason to exist, which would also contradict the fear of death that the revelation illuminates for him. The only choice is to submit to Big Brother and the Party, a structure that has existed since time immemorial, a fortress against the void, and a community that will keep you alive while keeping you busy with patching up the walls. That's why 1984 is a scray book; it shows us the victory of nothing. Faced with that, how can fan works possibly compete?

You sir deserve a cookie.