I have a question about Stalingrad

Deleted member 1487

Interesting, what kind of “attacks” was Stalin trying to order to Zhukov?
Immediate counterattacks before units were deployed, trained, or fully equipped to stop the advance on Stalingrad; as it was the Germans overran a number of units, but likely their defeats would have been worse had Stalin's plans gone into action and Stalingrad would likely have fallen as a result. Stalin was freaked out about all the retreats and was afraid of a revolt against him (classic paranoia, the people were too afraid to really try to overthrow him in the midst of a war for survival).

I doubt so. The heavy Ju-87 Stuka raids are frequently mentioned in Soviet memoirs (Kataev, Simonov, Paustovsky etc.), but simultaneously and later the Soviet artillery and rocket artillery support from east bank was also noted, while German artillery was mentioned sporadically to none. Well, the truth was likely what Germans did not have enough artillery in Stalingrad zone for Soviet artillery suppression, and tried to substitute with air raids, but that attempt has also failed IOTL.
I'm not sure whether those memoirs are accurate, written as they were after the fact.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6th_Army_(Wehrmacht)
Despite German air superiority over Stalingrad, and with more artillery pieces than the Red Army, progress was reduced to no more than several meters a day. Eventually, by mid November, the 62nd Army had been pushed to the banks of the Volga, but the 6th Army was unable to eliminate the remaining Soviet troops.[10]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Stalingrad#Casualties
According to a contemporary Soviet report, 5,762 guns, 1,312 mortars, 12,701 heavy machine guns, 156,987 rifles, 80,438 sub-machine guns, 10,722 trucks, 744 aircraft; 1,666 tanks, 261 other armored vehicles, 571 half-tracks and 10,679 motorcycles were captured by the Soviets.[123]
That was just what was captured, not even lost in combat or destroyed before surrender.

I've seen on other forums documentation about how much artillery ammo was reaching Stalingrad for the Germans (it was substantial), plus the use of Dora:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwerer_Gustav#Dora
 

trurle

Banned
Immediate counterattacks before units were deployed, trained, or fully equipped to stop the advance on Stalingrad; as it was the Germans overran a number of units, but likely their defeats would have been worse had Stalin's plans gone into action and Stalingrad would likely have fallen as a result. Stalin was freaked out about all the retreats and was afraid of a revolt against him (classic paranoia, the people were too afraid to really try to overthrow him in the midst of a war for survival).


I'm not sure whether those memoirs are accurate, written as they were after the fact.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6th_Army_(Wehrmacht)


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Stalingrad#Casualties

That was just what was captured, not even lost in combat or destroyed before surrender.

I've seen on other forums documentation about how much artillery ammo was reaching Stalingrad for the Germans (it was substantial), plus the use of Dora:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwerer_Gustav#Dora
Well, we have some mixed-bag statistics indicating approximate parity in number of guns with Soviets and eventual outcome of Germans failing to achieve artillery fire superiority. Most likely they did not have enough of counter-battery pieces or ammunition for them. Dora cannon in particular was for fortified positions busting (14 rounds per day, while typical counter-battery piece would fire ~200 rounds per day), not for counter-battery fire which require substantial fire rate. Also, i suspect German logistical problems mean the heavy field guns and their ammunition were less available in Stalingrad compared to light ones. Also, i noticed in one of memoirs the "13mm" MG on wheeled carriages (likely some mods of Hotchkiss M1930) were reported as "cannons" by Soviets during battle of Stalingrad, based on carriage type. Overall, proof of German artillery superiority during Battle of Stalingrad seems for me rather tenuous.
 
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Deleted member 1487

Well, we have some mixed-bag statistics indicating approximate parity in number of guns with Soviets and eventual outcome of Germans failing to achieve artillery fire superiority. Most likely they did not have enough of counter-battery pieces or ammunition for them. Dora cannon in particular was for fortified positions busting (14 rounds per day, while typical counter-battery piece would fire ~200 rounds per day), not for counter-battery fire which require substantial fire rate. Also, i suspect German logistical problems mean the heavy field guns and their ammunition were less available in Stalingrad compared to light ones. Also, i noticed in one of memoirs the "13mm" MG on wheeled carriages (likely some mods of Hotchkiss M1930) were reported as "cannons" by Soviets during battle of Stalingrad, based on carriage type. Overall, proof of German artillery superiority during Battle of Stalingrad seems for me rather tenuous.
You are entitled to your opinion. Of course things changed over the course of the battle as the Soviets brought in more forces. In September their artillery concentrations might not have been as strong as they were in October; beyond that without having to support the fighting in Stalingrad German artillery in the area can focus on counter battery work, while supply is eased by not having to fight a constant grinding city battle. Plus too the Luftwaffe would be freed up to focus on things other than making rubble bounce, which could be anti-artillery work.
 
Stalin isn’t the type to lose his shit over things. He was cautious to a fault
I, and clearly others, strongly disagree.

Had Stalingrad been lost it would have been a disaster of epic proportions for the Soviets. Had Stalin not simply keeled over from a heart attack brought on by either stress or anger, then there would have been a purge like never before.

This would potentially have led to a coup by either the Army or Beria.
 

Edward IX

Banned
Well, from the book, I at least found out why the city was called Stalingrad. More history than I realized.
 

Deleted member 1487

I, and clearly others, strongly disagree.

Had Stalingrad been lost it would have been a disaster of epic proportions for the Soviets. Had Stalin not simply keeled over from a heart attack brought on by either stress or anger, then there would have been a purge like never before.

This would potentially have led to a coup by either the Army or Beria.
I'm not so sure about that. Though I could clearly see Stalin ordering suicidal counteroffensives immediately to take it back, which could create a military crisis and throw away the potential for the OTL victory against AG-South. If the Germans remain posted up on the Volga and Soviet forces are too weak to attack by winter then the Soviets will have some problems come 1943. But German forces are going to have to be siphoned off increasingly to face the threat of the Wallies and Stalin will demand more and greater action there...which might mean a 1943 Wallied invasion of France after Torch instead of an invasion of Italy.
 
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