Hungarian independence 1848-49 - effect on German unification?

How would an independent Hungary from 1948/49 influence the later unification of Germany? Could it have resulted in Großdeutschland including both Prussia or Austria or would this still be impossible? Prussia managed to include a large German state such as Bavaria, despite the fact that it had its own king. Could they have done something similar with Austria? And what about the Slavic areas in Austria?
 
An independent Hungary would have helped Austria to join the later German Empire, but this is not the only condition for that.

Prussia would have never accepted an Austrian state that could be perceived as an equal force inside the Empire. Only if Austria is divided in lesser states (at least without Bohemia-Moravia) and it's 'weakened' to the point that would not challenge Prussian supremacy inside the Empire, then Prussia might accept it like the other southern German states. That's why in my recent TL about this same point Austria joins the German Empire after an absolute crush in 1866.

The Slavic areas in Austria would have not been a big problem, because they would have been a little minority inside the German Empire (less than Poles) and Slovenes were considered more 'Germanized' than many Poles.
 

iddt3

Donor
An independent Hungary would have helped Austria to join the later German Empire, but this is not the only condition for that.

Prussia would have never accepted an Austrian state that could be perceived as an equal force inside the Empire. Only if Austria is divided in lesser states (at least without Bohemia-Moravia) and it's 'weakened' to the point that would not challenge Prussian supremacy inside the Empire, then Prussia might accept it like the other southern German states. That's why in my recent TL about this same point Austria joins the German Empire after an absolute crush in 1866.

The Slavic areas in Austria would have not been a big problem, because they would have been a little minority inside the German Empire (less than Poles) and Slovenes were considered more 'Germanized' than many Poles.

What if the other German states push for it as a counterwieght? Prussia may not want it in, but I can see a scenario developing where they don't have a choice, either due to the course of events getting out of control or the other German states deciding it's the only way to avoid Prussian domination.
 
Depend how Weak or Strong are the Hasburg after it, if the Hungarian Directorate(if a kingdom or republic is TBD) decided to push for the adriatic and maybe give an hand to the checz, the hasburg maybe would be willingly to ask help to the frankfurt goverment and make a deal with the hohenzollern.

A good way for a Grossdeutchland make all happy, would be the Hohenzollern as Kaiser but they only have limited federal powers(like 1870 proposal, kaiser is primum inter pares and other kings have equal standing) and the federal states have their own autonomy except for the National Army(Prussia Dominated) and National Navy(if Austria keep lombardo-veneto will be Austrian Dominated) and keep a balance between the powers, maybe the first canchellor would be an austria or bavarian to keep prussian power in check before bismarck saw come and conquer.

Austria with Lombardo-Veneto(but Bohemia a separate Kingdom Under other Hasburg) but losing all his other possesion(Like Dalmatia and Croatia) can be the counterweight to prussia and keep an interesting dualism
 
What if the other German states push for it as a counterwieght? Prussia may not want it in, but I can see a scenario developing where they don't have a choice, either due to the course of events getting out of control or the other German states deciding it's the only way to avoid Prussian domination.

It might be that for instance Bavaria and other areas that were Catholic-dominated would insist on including Austria. This would probably lead to a more decentralized structure. I think a bigger problem than Prussia would be if Austria really wanted to become a part of it. And who should become emperor? Maybe one could come have a personal union, where Austria and Prussia would be united through a marriage between a member of the Habsburg and the Hohenzollern?
 
It might be that for instance Bavaria and other areas that were Catholic-dominated would insist on including Austria. This would probably lead to a more decentralized structure. I think a bigger problem than Prussia would be if Austria really wanted to become a part of it. And who should become emperor? Maybe one could come have a personal union, where Austria and Prussia would be united through a marriage between a member of the Habsburg and the Hohenzollern?

or sharing the Imperial Title between the two house every X year(like 2 or 3 year the hohenzollern and other the hasburg, rinse and repat at eternity) as away to 'keep tension low and unify the nation', as we say, using a more federal and decentralized structure with the emperor as the 'federal king' rather the national monarch and with all other kings and nobles with their power in their own feuds? that is hard but can work, specially if the Kaiser must reside in Frankfurt(neutral place) during his tenure.
 
If it becomes independent AFTER the German dreams of unification at Frankfurt have largely collapsed, it would have a much different effect in the long run than if it became independent at the time when those dreams were very much alive

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
or sharing the Imperial Title between the two house every X year(like 2 or 3 year the hohenzollern and other the hasburg, rinse and repat at eternity) as away to 'keep tension low and unify the nation', as we say, using a more federal and decentralized structure with the emperor as the 'federal king' rather the national monarch and with all other kings and nobles with their power in their own feuds? that is hard but can work, specially if the Kaiser must reside in Frankfurt(neutral place) during his tenure.

More decentralized than OTL German Empire, but still clearly more centralized than the Holy Roman Empire.
 
More decentralized than OTL German Empire, but still clearly more centralized than the Holy Roman Empire.

Excatly, but here with a National-Federal Internal policy, economics policy, Army and Navy, that would make a formidable state and make his rivals(france in the west, russia in the east) not have ideas for a long time.

The ideas is that, nobility keep some right and power but share it with the National Diet(Reichs or bundes) and follow common internal and economy policy but the nobles(or the city council in the free cities) still have words in the management of their 'state'. like a more decentralized USA.
 
This kind of idea is some of what I am exploring in my TL.

The problem for making a united Germany in 1848 was that every side was unwilling to compromise their definition of 'territorial integrity'. Even for advocates of the Großdeutschland solution, the non-German populations of the Austrian Empire were going to be a problem, and iOTL once the Austrians beat down the Viennese revolt and restored control, they were absolutely unwilling to compromise any part of the empire being in any way separate, while the unifiers wanted Austria's German areas and not much else.

Add to that fact that the biggest faction at Frankfurt were mainly interested in seeing Prussia at the head of a united Germany, and Austria's got big problems. If Austria were to lose Hungary (and with it presumably most of its non-German population), perhaps the not pro-Prussians would rally behind Austria as a counterweight, as has been mentioned above.

It's certainly an interesting question, and I think would be a big boost to an earlier German unification.
 
Austria without Hungary (including minorities within Hungary) would be less heterogenous than Austria with Hungary. Besides, Prussia was not totally homogenous either, as there were many Poles within the Prussian kingdom. If Austria lost Hungary, I assume the situation would look different. It might also help decrease the dissatisfaction among the Catholics within the Empire.
 
In 1848 the german National Assembly was actually very großdeutsch. They made a Habsburger Reichsverweser and actually were waiting for Austria falling apart, so that the Austrian Emperor would be forced to accept the german crone. To make the prussian King Emperor wasn´t really popular in the Assembly and was only accepted from a small majority as the last Option to get a united germn Nationalstate, after it became obvious that Austria wouldn´t fall apart. If Hungary really wins his Independence in 1848 and Austria has to accept this (mabe because Russia for whatever reason refuse to intervene) I assume the Austrians would be forced to Chose the german Option. The Nationla Assembly would vote for the Habsburg Emporer as Emperor of the Germans, and the Prussian King, the bigest Hbsburg Fanboy alive would propably accept this.
 
The problem in 1848 is that the Habsburgs conceived their Empire as their familiar courtyard and they were mentally far from pan-Germanist ideals. They did not care if their lands have Germans, Hungarians or Romanians, they cared for THEIR lands.

That's why a Grossdeutschland leaded by an Habsburg is pretty unlikely, even if some pan-Germanists wanted this because the Habsburgs somehow symbolized the HRE inheritance etc etc while the Hohenzollerns lacked of any glamour.

Prussia leaded the unification because it was the one that prioritized a national project over the traditional dynastical interests. After 1867, the Habsburgs coped better with the national reality of their 'courtyard', but then it was too late, because Prussia was on the rise and had just defeated them.
 

raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
Donor
Monthly Donor
It makes it happen sooner than OTL. It can happen in any form-

Prussian-led union similar to OTL and excluding Austria but more confederal.

Or an Austrian-led union.

If Austria is excluded from a Prussian-led union, Austria, consisting of Galicia, Bohemia, Austria, possibly Lomnbardy Veneto, Dalmatia and maybe even Croatian might be Europe's largest neutral states, and a fairly prosperous one, and a hyperpower in any 20th century winter olympic games.
 
An independent Hungary would have helped Austria to join the later German Empire, but this is not the only condition for that.

Prussia would have never accepted an Austrian state that could be perceived as an equal force inside the Empire. Only if Austria is divided in lesser states (at least without Bohemia-Moravia) and it's 'weakened' to the point that would not challenge Prussian supremacy inside the Empire, then Prussia might accept it like the other southern German states. That's why in my recent TL about this same point Austria joins the German Empire after an absolute crush in 1866.

The Slavic areas in Austria would have not been a big problem, because they would have been a little minority inside the German Empire (less than Poles) and Slovenes were considered more 'Germanized' than many Poles.

I don't think that is accurate. There was some high level talk in the mid 19th century about a dual monarchy with a Prussian Emperor of Germany and an Austrian Emperor of the Romans.
 
I don't think that is accurate. There was some high level talk in the mid 19th century about a dual monarchy with a Prussian Emperor of Germany and an Austrian Emperor of the Romans.

Umm tell me more About it, source and how would the 'two kaiser scenario' would ahve work?
 
Top