Hungarian designed assault rifle by 1939

  • Thread starter Deleted member 1487
  • Start date

Deleted member 1487

http://www.forgottenweapons.com/submachine-guns/danuvia-39m/
So apparently the Hungarian designer developed an 'almost' assault rifle in 1937, getting the Hungarian army to adopt it in 1939. It used a lever delayed blowback principle that was in effect the same as the later roller delayed blowback design of Mauser-CETME-H&K, excepting using a lever instead of rollers to achieve it's recoil function. That same principle was successfully applied to the FAMAS assault rifle an much improved version of the AK-47 that wasn't adopted supposedly out of no fault of it's own:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TKB-517

So what if rather than using the 9mm export Kiraly develops a cheap, reliable, accurate rifle based around an intermediate round? Would the Hungarian army adopt it as a service rifle and would anyone else in the Axis or would it be a NMH situation?
 
Nice gun and nice round

Okay so other than what you suggest I would simplify it - get rid of the 'Folding magazine' put a better mag release on it!

Later versions eliminate the wood al together

Instead of an 'intermediate' round perhaps do what they did to the 9mm x 19 that is to plus it - the 9mm 'P' ammo allowed the same round to fired at +10-20% the power of the then standard 9mm para

Given that the 9 x 25mm Mauser export is already a more powerful round tha 9mm para then a hot load might be good enough?
 

Deleted member 1487

Nice gun and nice round

Okay so other than what you suggest I would simplify it - get rid of the 'Folding magazine' put a better mag release on it!

Later versions eliminate the wood al together

Instead of an 'intermediate' round perhaps do what they did to the 9mm x 19 that is to plus it - the 9mm 'P' ammo allowed the same round to fired at +10-20% the power of the then standard 9mm para

Given that the 9 x 25mm Mauser export is already a more powerful round tha 9mm para then a hot load might be good enough?
They did. The Hungarian 9mm export was a 'hot' load that pushed a 125 grain 9mm bullet at 450m/s rather than the standard 390-410m/s of the standard load.
The 7.65x30mm or x32mm in 7.92mm Kurz or steel cored 7.92mm flat based 1914 bullet would have been better:
http://www.municion.org/7mm/7_65x30.htm
http://www.municion.org/7mm/7_65x32PistolenKarabiner.htm
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Deleted member 1487

The .25 Remington might have made a nice round for a Kiraly assault rifle

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.25_Remington
Sure, but was it in production in Hungary as to make it a viable option?
Realistically I'd think that Kiraly would be limited to what is actually made in Hungary already. Just like how the Czech prototype assault rifle was made with an intermediate 7.92mm proprietary round:
http://guns.wikia.com/wiki/ZK_412
latest


https://i2.guns.ru/forums/icons/forum_pictures/012700/12700604.jpg
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Sure, but was it in production in Hungary as to make it a viable option?

Making an already established cartridge is a lot simpler than designing a new one. .25 Remington might not have been common in central Europe but it was a highly thought of design, even the Russians discussed it's use in the Federov Avtomat before going for the Arisaka round because there were good stocks on hand.
 

Deleted member 1487

Making an already established cartridge is a lot simpler than designing a new one. .25 Remington might not have been common in central Europe but it was a highly thought of design, even the Russians discussed it's use in the Federov Avtomat before going for the Arisaka round because there were good stocks on hand.
Really? Do you have some info about that? I'd be highly interested to read more about the 'alternative' Federov.
Thing was though, they didn't go with the US round, despite having access to US shipments, because the Arisaka round was more available; I'd think that would probably be a deciding factor for the Hungarians too. They probably could take their historical efforts and lengthen a Mauser Export case and either fit a 7.92 bullet or a Spitzer 9mm, like a US designer did to develop the first assault rifle in 1917 (not with that name or concept though):
http://www.popularmechanics.com/military/a21631/forgotten-weapons-americas-first-assault-rifle/
 
alternative' Federov.

It wasn't an alternative just one of the ammunition options discussed. The Soviets also discussed the .25 for the project that became the 7.62x39 round and the SKS. Probably lots of designers looked at the round but for various reasons went in another direction.
 

Deleted member 1487

It wasn't an alternative just one of the ammunition options discussed. The Soviets also discussed the .25 for the project that became the 7.62x39 round and the SKS. Probably lots of designers looked at the round but for various reasons went in another direction.
There were a number of options discussed I'd imagine, but none hit the prototype or even drawing board, right?
In terms of what the Hungarians had in production it seems either a 7.92 or 8mm bullet would be the likely rifle round if they were going to go that route. That or a bigger 9mm round not unlike the one the French used for the French proto-assault rifle:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ribeyrolles_1918_automatic_carbine
 
They did. The Hungarian 9mm export was a 'hot' load that pushed a 125 grain 9mm bullet at 450m/s rather than the standard 390-410m/s of the standard load.
The 7.65x30mm or x32mm in 7.92mm Kurz or steel cored 7.92mm flat based 1914 bullet would have been better:
http://www.municion.org/7mm/7_65x30.htm
http://www.municion.org/7mm/7_65x32PistolenKarabiner.htm

To be honest for the ranges it was going to be used for and at the ranges it would be used at (which admittedly takes a degree of foresight I do not believe existed pre war) the Powerful pistol round was 'good enough' and required zero change from the original weapon (although I would still eliminate some of the bells and whistles like the folding Magazine).

And there we have it a select fire Assault Carbine - that name will never catch on.
 

Deleted member 1487

To be honest for the ranges it was going to be used for and at the ranges it would be used at (which admittedly takes a degree of foresight I do not believe existed pre war) the Powerful pistol round was 'good enough' and required zero change from the original weapon (although I would still eliminate some of the bells and whistles like the folding Magazine).

And there we have it a select fire Assault Carbine - that name will never catch on.
I think the issue more is that the blunt nosed 9mm bullet could effectively kill at 200-300m...but the problem was the trajectory. The Soviet 7.62 Tokarev round was 'high powered' compared to standard 9mm parabellum, but was only effective out to about 150m range and getting hits out to 300m was pure chance or volume. Because they used lighter rounds too, the killing power beyond 150m was pretty iffy too (not a problem with the heavier 9mm round, but the ballistics were still pretty poor). You'd need a much more aerodynamic bullet and/or a higher powered round to be accurate out to 300m
 

Deleted member 1487

Hey British posters, what to get really irate? Apparently Britain had the rights and designs to make the Kiraly SMG/Light Rifle IOTL in 1938:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pál_Király
In 1938, BSA in the United Kingdom acquired the blueprints for Pál Király's submachine gun/machine carbine as well as the rights to manufacture it. Examples were produced in 9mm Mauser Export caliber according to Király's design. BSA estimated that these arms would only cost 5 pounds each to manufacture. However, in the UK, military officials viewed submachine guns as "gangster weapons" and therefore inappropriate for regular troops. Plans to manufacture it were shelved.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birmingham_Small_Arms_Company#Second_World_War
In the 1930s, the board of directors authorised expenditure on bringing their arms-making equipment back to use – it had been stored at company expense since the end of the Great War in the belief that BSA might again be called upon to perform its patriotic duty. In 1939, BSA acquired the blueprints for a submachine gun designed by Hungarian arms designer Pál Király as well as the rights to manufacture it. Examples were produced in 9mm Mauser Export calibre according to Kiraly's design. It was estimated that these arms would only cost 5 pounds each to manufacture. However, at the time, submachine guns were viewed as "gangster weapons" and plans to manufacture it were shelved.[29]

Clark, D.M. Arming the British Home Guard 1940-1944, PhD Thesis, Cranfield University, 2010

So what if the British army had adopted the 'machine carbine' in 1938?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
So what if rather than using the 9mm export Kiraly develops a cheap, reliable, accurate rifle based around an intermediate round? Would the Hungarian army adopt it as a service rifle and would anyone else in the Axis or would it be a NMH situation?

could Hungary produce enough for Germans? in the event they DID adopt its widespread use (thinking of turboprop also as to their ability to mass produce their innovations)
 

Deleted member 1487

could Hungary produce enough for Germans? in the event they DID adopt its widespread use (thinking of turboprop also as to their ability to mass produce their innovations)
Nope, they only made 8000 for themselves. The Germans would and should make them for themselves and probably the Hungarians. The Hungarian turboprop was a prototype proof of concept design, not a useful thing.

Pah - what need did we have for a Gangster weapon!?
I see you work for the British government.
 

Deleted member 1487

And five whole Pounds each? why what kind of junk would that be at that price? Look what the Americans charge for the M1928, and a copy of the Bergmann would be 15 Pounds
Can you imagine a stamped steel knock off version? Would have been a hunk of junk I tell ya.
 
Top