How would you usually write about a Popular Monarch?

This is Kind of bugging me even though it's really minor..

For example even though Napoleon I and III Were officially Emperors of the French, they are often written about or described as French emperors or Emperors of France.

Is there any hard rule on this stuff...

I ask because I'm having trouble figuring out how you would describe an Emperor of the Germans...
 
It depends who you ask and what place and time you're talking about, because title usage conventions tend to be quite fluid.

I think Napoleon I was copying the usages prevalent up to that time. The formal title of the Holy Roman Emperor was "Emperor of the Romans", so Napoleon crowned himself "Emperor of the French". The notion that he was a popular monarch was only loosely associated with the title; I think it came more as the only plausible way of justifying a royal or imperial dignity for himself, as a commoner who rose to prominence as a military leader in a republican movement, apart from naked force.

I think Napoleon III used the same title as his uncle in order to emphasize continuity, as his claim was based on bloodlines and inheritance.

At about the same time as N3, there was a nontrivial controversy in the negotiations about the formation of the German Empire over the Kaiser's specific title. The Kaiser-to-be wanted to be "Emperor of Germany" (which he saw as implying that the government and constitution drew their legitimacy from him, not the other way around), while the federated German monarchs generally preferred "German Emperor" for precisely the same reasons. In terms of actual constitutional role, though, the Kaiser and N3 were very similar: they were strong, hereditary executives of constitutional states and were considered to be of imperial dignity.
 
It depends who you ask and what place and time you're talking about, because title usage conventions tend to be quite fluid.

I think Napoleon I was copying the usages prevalent up to that time. The formal title of the Holy Roman Emperor was "Emperor of the Romans", so Napoleon crowned himself "Emperor of the French". The notion that he was a popular monarch was only loosely associated with the title; I think it came more as the only plausible way of justifying a royal or imperial dignity for himself, as a commoner who rose to prominence as a military leader in a republican movement, apart from naked force.

I think Napoleon III used the same title as his uncle in order to emphasize continuity, as his claim was based on bloodlines and inheritance.

At about the same time as N3, there was a nontrivial controversy in the negotiations about the formation of the German Empire over the Kaiser's specific title. The Kaiser-to-be wanted to be "Emperor of Germany" (which he saw as implying that the government and constitution drew their legitimacy from him, not the other way around), while the federated German monarchs generally preferred "German Emperor" for precisely the same reasons. In terms of actual constitutional role, though, the Kaiser and N3 were very similar: they were strong, hereditary executives of constitutional states and were considered to be of imperial dignity.

I see thank you...
 
Maniakes, I think you're forgetting how the French Revolution intentionally changed King Louis's style from "King of France" to "King of the French" precisely to make the point that he was now a constitutional monarch drawing his legitimacy from the people instead of the land. I'd think Napoleon was copying that style.
 
Maniakes, I think you're forgetting how the French Revolution intentionally changed King Louis's style from "King of France" to "King of the French" precisely to make the point that he was now a constitutional monarch drawing his legitimacy from the people instead of the land. I'd think Napoleon was copying that style.

There was also the fact that Napoleon was technically the Emperor of a republic. According to his official style, he was "His Imperial Majesty Napoleon I, By the Grace of God and the Constitutions of the Republic, Emperor of the French, ex ex". This could be a combination of both the constitutional style of Louis XVI and a copy of the Principate, when the Roman Emperor was, in theory, ruler of the Republic.
 
Maniakes, I think you're forgetting how the French Revolution intentionally changed King Louis's style from "King of France" to "King of the French" precisely to make the point that he was now a constitutional monarch drawing his legitimacy from the people instead of the land. I'd think Napoleon was copying that style.

I was not aware of that. Thank you.
 
It depends on the international situation in Europe. In 1871, for example, William could not declare himself "Emperor of Germany" or "Emperor of the Germans" without causing a serious international dispute because it would be seen as making a claim on Austria. The more neutral "German Emperor" was chosen instead.
 
It depends on the international situation in Europe. In 1871, for example, William could not declare himself "Emperor of Germany" or "Emperor of the Germans" without causing a serious international dispute because it would be seen as making a claim on Austria. The more neutral "German Emperor" was chosen instead.

IIRC William could have been called Emperor of the Germans but didn't really want to because it implied that he wasn't appointed by god but through the people's consent.
 
IIRC William could have been called Emperor of the Germans but didn't really want to because it implied that he wasn't appointed by god but through the people's consent.

Looking back, I think you're right on that. Though I think "Emperor of the Germans" would have run into the same problem as "Emperor of Germany" even if Elder Willy didn't think he was God's Bailiff, though it wasn't the main reason for rejection.
 
Looking back, I think you're right on that. Though I think "Emperor of the Germans" would have run into the same problem as "Emperor of Germany" even if Elder Willy didn't think he was God's Bailiff, though it wasn't the main reason for rejection.

Agreed, I may have to think about changing that title back to german emperor in my project even with all the differences that have occurred.
 
Agreed, I may have to think about changing that title back to german emperor in my project even with all the differences that have occurred.

Yeah, unless this Germany encompasses all of the German-speaking areas of Europe of any import, I think "Emperor of Germany" and "Emperor of the Germans" alike would seem quite an imposition. Though if your monarch wanted to sound imposing over all of the smaller Germanies, it could work out great.
 
Yeah, unless this Germany encompasses all of the German-speaking areas of Europe of any import, I think "Emperor of Germany" and "Emperor of the Germans" alike would seem quite an imposition. Though if your monarch wanted to sound imposing over all of the smaller Germanies, it could work out great.

If you check out the thing in my sig! (obligatory plug :eek:)

You'll see that title of Emperor of the Germans was imposed on the Wilhelm I by an implausibly strong liberal uprising that caused Germany to bungle the Franco-Prussian war.

Which is what the Voters inadvertently in SW asked for! :p
 
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If you check out the thing in my sig! (obligatory plug :eek:)

You'll see that title of Emperor of the Germans was imposed on the Wilhelm I by an implausibly strong liberal uprising that cause Germany to bungle the Franco-Prussian war.

Which is what the Voters inadvertently in SW asked for! :p

Coooool...
 

Saphroneth

Banned
It depends on the international situation in Europe. In 1871, for example, William could not declare himself "Emperor of Germany" or "Emperor of the Germans" without causing a serious international dispute because it would be seen as making a claim on Austria. The more neutral "German Emperor" was chosen instead.
At least he didn't go for "Emperor In Germany".
 
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