How would you take over the world? (Moo-haa-haa.)

Alkahest

Banned
I'm currently writing a story where a small, Illuminati-esque group of people are attempting to concentrate as much power as possible into the hands of one single person. They do this by covertly "arranging" marriages, assassinating people and so forth. Now, let's assume you're the chairman of this would-be Shadowy Council of People Who Sit in Poorly-Lit Rooms and Rule the World. What would you do? There's no single POD for you to work with, you can manipulate as much as you want throughout the centuries.

The parameters of your plan are as follows:
1: You start in the beginning of the 17th century. (1611 is the year I use, though that can be slightly fudged.)
2: You must create an empire run by a monarch with absolute power, no republic or constitutional monarchy here.
3: This empire must contain at least half the world's population and preferably at least half the world's land area.
4: This empire must be able to beat all other existing polities in a war, even if everyone else gangs up on it.
5: Personal unions are encouraged.
6: This empire must have been around for a long while when you reach the year 2012.
 
The trouble you have is that a long lasting empire / kingdom of this size would need to be seen as -ocracy (dem, theo etc.) for it to be long lasting.
Most empires only last past the death of their creator if many people are invested in it's future.

Since you want halfs the world population you will need to start with one of these as core to you empire:
1) China
2) India (totally unitied not seperate kingdoms)
3) Europe (as with India, unitied)
4) Russia (post WWII size).

Any empire would need at least two of these, and since I presume that the any state not in the empire would be an emeny the other two will propably be linked by alliance.

I would have thought that a French empire where the Seven Year war was won (France then gets India and USA) and then had General Napoleon defeat Europe and Russia for Louise XVI would be a start.

Still not going to happen - by I guess it might give our French friends a warm glow!
 
A China that takes over Siberia, the Second Island Chain and South East Asia might qualify, especially if it settles Australia and Western North America, a 1611 PoD having ruled out Latin America and east of the Mississippi.
 

RousseauX

Donor
You can't, every group of people with national political power have attempted at expanding their power and most fail to even achieve -their- goal of how much power they should have let along world dominance. And for good reasons.
 

Alkahest

Banned
Thanks for your replies, everyone!

I know that the clichéd old world domination-scenario is rather ASB-y, and indeed the story itself involves pseudo-Lovecraftian magic and eventually psionic vampires (don't ask), but I wanted to keep the backstory as "realistic" as possible.

My own (probably rather Eurocentric) thoughts involve England and France. My understanding is that the Spanish decline was likely (although far from inevitable) and that the other colonial powers, like the Netherlands and Portugal, were too small to be real powerhouses in the long run.

One idea is of course some form of Anglo-French united empire, although I'm not sure how one would achieve such a thing and keep it together. Perhaps a long conflict between the French kings and the pope could lead to an "almost Catholic", Gallican national church similar to the Church of England, which would make England and France natural allies against the Habsburgs and other "Papist lapdogs". This could pave the way for a theocratic monarchy.
 
I don't like to use the term "ASB" lightly but I fear it must apply here. You've covered that with your "illuminati" reference, not to mention hints of vampires:eek:; but I think that's what it takes so you really should have launched this in that forum.

Mere human beings probably cannot maintain some Mason-esque conspiracy (going by what the alarmist opponents of Masonism luridly believed, not by what Masons really were and are OTL) as a coherent plot going generation after generation. Also, just what is their motivation, even assuming they can possibly maintain discipline?

Put mystical immortal beings into the mix and we might be going somewhere. Alien Star-Trekesque "energy beings" might fit the bill, or of course your vampires somewhere on the Anne Rice/Buffyverse spectrum.

Buffyverse vampires can't be arsed to organize themselves as a world-conquering conspiracy; check out the last episode of Buffy Season 2 for Spike's reasoning plus the demonstration of his deeds versus Angel's--vampires who identify strongly with their demon side want to simply end the human world and if they get grandiose enough to organize under that rubric, that's the nature of their conspiracy--have some mega-demon rise up and swallow it or burn down all the "righteous" humans or some such; vampires like Spike who rather enjoy parasitizing on our world don't want the responsibility of messing with it. They just like to skim the bloody cream.

They just aren't much for organization.

So I suppose any vampires involved are either quite different from Buffy-Verse or are along for the thrilling ride, not the kingpins of the organization.

Given that there are shadowy forces at work unknown to the common man, the question arises, why didn't they take over long ago and rule the world openly to this very day? In Buffy-Verse the Slayer is a short and partial answer, but it seems to me there there are deeper principles at work, of which the Slayer line is just one manifestation. Sort of ecological. Our Earth is moving away from the demon origins, demons stay in contact with it but on the whole from their point of view it's a corrupt and slummy backwater, working out its new destiny. (Cue Angel in the last ep of that series--"the humans are winning." Here anyway.) The failures of various human organizations that attempt to mix otherworldly powers with human ones (the end of the Council, the failure of the Initiative) indicate that there's something flawed in their program that dooms them; I think it's because they are bucking the trend of Earth to move off in its own humanistic direction. The deep reasons for this are buried in mystery in the Buffyverse.

In other mythos, like Lovecraft, it's just the cyclic nature of time--the Old Ones will be back and we can't stop it, any more than they could prevail unbroken through our mundane interregnum.

Others will posit some epic battle going on the larger cosmos, of which we are just footsoldiers; in that view, this conspiracy is taking a side and presumably the other side will counter with its own reactions and initiatives.

If we can shed the whole ASB business of unknown mystical forces at work, the challenge is to come up with some realistic human organization that can do the job, one I've already dismissed to my personal satisfaction though I'll applaud anyone who can pull it off convincingly.

If we are going to have mystical stuff (or aliens with tech sufficiently advanced to be indistinguishable from magic, or conceivably aliens with tech and agendas we can sort of grasp and try to outguess) we have to be specific; state the boundaries of their capabilities and their goals.

It could be there's a mystical background that is in itself neutral in terms of human history, that human historical actors learn of and seek to harness. If we have some kind of magic (including manipulating neutral alien tech left lying around) in human hands, I suppose some aspects of it might overcome the tendencies of any human organization to drift off on various tangents. Say it involves some kind of immortality for key members of the inner circle, so some gang of wizards (POD implies they don't get their act together until the 17th century, so that's the starting point) from Jacobean times is still running the show. Or they can compel people to stick to the program by swearing them to mystically binding oaths that destroy those who stray from the path.

Frankly if they have powers like that, I suspect that long before the goal is achieved they come up from underground; securing unchallenged power in some stronghold they systematically go about conquering the world openly, confident their opponents can't match their powers even if everyone outside their domain (and many dissidents within it) unite in determination to stop them.

But you still have to specify the parameters of their special powers. These might cleverly explain why they remain secretive even to this day.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
I would start with a revitalized China. It is the only united, single power I can see who has a chance. A series of very competent, expansionist Emperors could be enough alone.
 
I would start with a revitalized China. It is the only united, single power I can see who has a chance. A series of very competent, expansionist Emperors could be enough alone.
Beware. The "China can never be expansionist" brigade should be arriving soon.
 

RousseauX

Donor
Beware. The "China can never be expansionist" brigade should be arriving soon.
It's not that "China can never be expansionist" but China was expansionist that is the problem.

So where does the China expand? Going East means Korea, which was historically a vassal state of China already and historical invasions of Korea failed pretty horribly.

Going West Means the Central Asian Steppes, which was historically subjected by the Qing Emperors. I guess you could have them try to go further, but that raises the question of why exactly do they want another thousand miles of steppes under their control.

Going North means much the same thing as going west, against opponents which were historically on parity with or superior to the armies of China all the way up until the gunpowder era. The Qing emperors once again did accomplish the conquest of Mongolia, but trying to take more of Siberia before the 20th century really lacks logic of why would they want more unproductive territory.

Going South means conquering northern Vietnam, which was on-off, on again tributary state, province of China, or independence for over a thousand years. Maybe a determined dynasty could make the conquest stick for a while but it would only be until the next period of disunity before it breaks off again. Even if northern Vietnam gets absorbed into China over course of centuries that's probably the limits of how far China can go.

The only option that seems viable for a more expansionist China is probably by sea towards Southeast Asia. Where historically ethnic Chinese communities became very powerful even without official state sponsorship. A determined Ming dynasty might be able to produce a navy (you can argue they already did OTL) and the political will to effect conquest of the region. But even then China would have it's belly full with pacifying and absorbing the region to go on any schemes of world conquest.
 
Beware. The "China can never be expansionist" brigade should be arriving soon.

Any competent and also expansionist Chinese emperor must be much more the former than the latter given the difficulty of managing the core area of the empire alone. If the POD is no earlier than 1611, then Emperor Wanli is on the throne. His early and middle reign are generally considered competent and he did preside over a strong economy and clean government while warding off Hideyoshi's invasion in Korea. But by the early 17th century he had become stereotypically corrupt and grown literally fat over his decadence. Thus, in 1611, he *must* magically revert to his previous "Confucian bureaucrat" style. He'd have to fire the cronies he had stacked in the bureaucracy and behead a few of them, rehabilitate those he had purged, cancel the unpopular taxes, and more competently play the divide and rule game against the Manchu tribes (e.g. by marrying off princesses and offering gifts, etc) to prevent Nurhaci from consolidating his leadership. Then pacifying the Mongol tribes is another absolute must.

The first expansionary step would be to demand greater influence in the Chosun court and a permanent military presence on the grounds that the big bad Japanese may strike again, with an eye to turn Korea into an actual puppet kingdom. Wanli dies of natural causes and his successor has an epiphany one night where he's told to unite All Under Heaven.
 
I don't like to use the term "ASB" lightly but I fear it must apply here. You've covered that with your "illuminati" reference, not to mention hints of vampires:eek:; but I think that's what it takes so you really should have launched this in that forum.

Mere human beings probably cannot maintain some Mason-esque conspiracy (going by what the alarmist opponents of Masonism luridly believed, not by what Masons really were and are OTL) as a coherent plot going generation after generation. Also, just what is their motivation, even assuming they can possibly maintain discipline?

Put mystical immortal beings into the mix and we might be going somewhere. Alien Star-Trekesque "energy beings" might fit the bill, or of course your vampires somewhere on the Anne Rice/Buffyverse spectrum.

Buffyverse vampires can't be arsed to organize themselves as a world-conquering conspiracy; check out the last episode of Buffy Season 2 for Spike's reasoning plus the demonstration of his deeds versus Angel's--vampires who identify strongly with their demon side want to simply end the human world and if they get grandiose enough to organize under that rubric, that's the nature of their conspiracy--have some mega-demon rise up and swallow it or burn down all the "righteous" humans or some such; vampires like Spike who rather enjoy parasitizing on our world don't want the responsibility of messing with it. They just like to skim the bloody cream.

They just aren't much for organization.

So I suppose any vampires involved are either quite different from Buffy-Verse or are along for the thrilling ride, not the kingpins of the organization.

Given that there are shadowy forces at work unknown to the common man, the question arises, why didn't they take over long ago and rule the world openly to this very day? In Buffy-Verse the Slayer is a short and partial answer, but it seems to me there there are deeper principles at work, of which the Slayer line is just one manifestation. Sort of ecological. Our Earth is moving away from the demon origins, demons stay in contact with it but on the whole from their point of view it's a corrupt and slummy backwater, working out its new destiny. (Cue Angel in the last ep of that series--"the humans are winning." Here anyway.) The failures of various human organizations that attempt to mix otherworldly powers with human ones (the end of the Council, the failure of the Initiative) indicate that there's something flawed in their program that dooms them; I think it's because they are bucking the trend of Earth to move off in its own humanistic direction. The deep reasons for this are buried in mystery in the Buffyverse.

In other mythos, like Lovecraft, it's just the cyclic nature of time--the Old Ones will be back and we can't stop it, any more than they could prevail unbroken through our mundane interregnum.

Others will posit some epic battle going on the larger cosmos, of which we are just footsoldiers; in that view, this conspiracy is taking a side and presumably the other side will counter with its own reactions and initiatives.

If we can shed the whole ASB business of unknown mystical forces at work, the challenge is to come up with some realistic human organization that can do the job, one I've already dismissed to my personal satisfaction though I'll applaud anyone who can pull it off convincingly.

If we are going to have mystical stuff (or aliens with tech sufficiently advanced to be indistinguishable from magic, or conceivably aliens with tech and agendas we can sort of grasp and try to outguess) we have to be specific; state the boundaries of their capabilities and their goals.

It could be there's a mystical background that is in itself neutral in terms of human history, that human historical actors learn of and seek to harness. If we have some kind of magic (including manipulating neutral alien tech left lying around) in human hands, I suppose some aspects of it might overcome the tendencies of any human organization to drift off on various tangents. Say it involves some kind of immortality for key members of the inner circle, so some gang of wizards (POD implies they don't get their act together until the 17th century, so that's the starting point) from Jacobean times is still running the show. Or they can compel people to stick to the program by swearing them to mystically binding oaths that destroy those who stray from the path.

Frankly if they have powers like that, I suspect that long before the goal is achieved they come up from underground; securing unchallenged power in some stronghold they systematically go about conquering the world openly, confident their opponents can't match their powers even if everyone outside their domain (and many dissidents within it) unite in determination to stop them.

But you still have to specify the parameters of their special powers. These might cleverly explain why they remain secretive even to this day.

Man, that was a good explanation!

Maybe Josef Stalin becomes a vamp? Lives forever, and leads the soviets to conquer the world?

And now I'm picturing Sarah Michelle Gellar battling Josef Stalin in an abandoned nuclear silo in Kazakastan...

Back on topic: conquering the world is not really a politically achievable task. I suppose one could probably conquer such a good share of it that opposing them would be near useless, even if they can't project everywhere. The best bet would be to force the creation of dependent vassal kings which ruled for whatever super state by delegation. I'm imaging something along the lines of how China forced its smaller neighbors into being vassal kings.

If China could absorb India at some point, the simple demographics would make them pretty irresistable economically and militarily. However; ruling such a vast empire would be nigh on impossible.

Overall, I would say economic/cultural imperialism is your best bet. If everyone think your empire is the best place to live for hundreds of years they may be ok with annexation some day. Perhaps eventually this leads to a federal "world government." USA and British empire come to mind as contenders here.

Of course; mega-Asia and mega-anglosphere/eurosphere will probably be around to oppose one another. People unite in the face of overwhelming threats.

Maybe something with the Mongols?
 
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