How would you have Spanish colonies revolt before the American colonies?

How would you have the Spanish colonies in North or South America revolting earlier, winning, and establishing a stable nation? Is it possible with a POD after 1600?
In essence im asking how would you get a Latin American nation to take the place of OTL USA.
 
How would you have the Spanish colonies in North or South America revolting earlier, winning, and establishing a stable nation? Is it possible with a POD after 1600?

you are asking several separate things.

Revoltnig earlier could happen in a number of ways - the inflation caused by the importation of silver was already crippling Spain and within 70 years of their actual loss of their empire, they were crushed by the United States ... simply having a few things trigger an economic crisis in spain itself that would distract from their colonial holdings could trigger a revolt or two.

As for having stable nations ... not sure. the Countries of South america inherited the feudal economic order of Spain. As a result, the conflicts beween conservatives and liberals and over land ownership and concentraitons of power are fairly constant frmo the moment of independnece up until the present day. Only Uruguay, Colombia and Chile have moved far past these struggles, with Brasil and Mexico making significant progress as well .. but even as recently as the 1970s, these fault lines still existed throughout the region. It is socio-economic. Even Bolivar felt the peoples of the region were not ready for the democratic experiment being attempted by his pen pals in North America.

You would need a substantially greater POD, say, more European immigration to Central America and Buenos Aires ... bringing their continental ideas ... maybe ... but those ideas formed during the French Revolution and the Napoleonic wars ... tough ...
 
you are asking several separate things.

Revoltnig earlier could happen in a number of ways - the inflation caused by the importation of silver was already crippling Spain and within 70 years of their actual loss of their empire, they were crushed by the United States ... simply having a few things trigger an economic crisis in spain itself that would distract from their colonial holdings could trigger a revolt or two.

As for having stable nations ... not sure. the Countries of South america inherited the feudal economic order of Spain. As a result, the conflicts beween conservatives and liberals and over land ownership and concentraitons of power are fairly constant frmo the moment of independnece up until the present day. Only Uruguay, Colombia and Chile have moved far past these struggles, with Brasil and Mexico making significant progress as well .. but even as recently as the 1970s, these fault lines still existed throughout the region. It is socio-economic. Even Bolivar felt the peoples of the region were not ready for the democratic experiment being attempted by his pen pals in North America.

You would need a substantially greater POD, say, more European immigration to Central America and Buenos Aires ... bringing their continental ideas ... maybe ... but those ideas formed during the French Revolution and the Napoleonic wars ... tough ...
It seems like a harder idea than i thought it would be
 
A Spanish American revolution doesn't have to be an attempt led by white colonists to create an independent democratic state. In fact, it's much easier to see a revolution that doesn't look like the USA one.

- You could have a native rebellion and overthrow of the Spanish rulers. This actually happened in Santa Fe in 1680, when the Spanish were thoroughly expelled by the Pueblo for twelve years. On the other end of the empire, the Mapuche managed to actually repel the Spanish invaders until the 18th Century.

- You could also have some feudal lord in the Americas attempt to set up a kingdom independent from Spain in the old world without adapting any democratic ideal.

It's definitely possible for a stable nation to arise from this sort of revolt (although it's also possible to just quash them), but these countries wouldn't exactly "take the place of OTL USA" - they'd be nothing like it.
 
A Spanish American revolution doesn't have to be an attempt led by white colonists to create an independent democratic state. In fact, it's much easier to see a revolution that doesn't look like the USA one.

- You could have a native rebellion and overthrow of the Spanish rulers. This actually happened in Santa Fe in 1680, when the Spanish were thoroughly expelled by the Pueblo for twelve years. On the other end of the empire, the Mapuche managed to actually repel the Spanish invaders until the 18th Century.

- You could also have some feudal lord in the Americas attempt to set up a kingdom independent from Spain in the old world without adapting any democratic ideal.

It's definitely possible for a stable nation to arise from this sort of revolt (although it's also possible to just quash them), but these countries wouldn't exactly "take the place of OTL USA" - they'd be nothing like it.
they dont have to be democratic, i just mean in size and power
 
How would you have the Spanish colonies in North or South America revolting earlier, winning, and establishing a stable nation? Is it possible with a POD after 1600?
In essence im asking how would you get a Latin American nation to take the place of OTL USA.


It would be difficult. Remember that many of the South American colonies rose up-to support Ferdinand VII against the Bonapartes. Ferdinand VII, being an idiot, decided to crack down on them instead, leading to the independence wars.

The best way to get an earlier Latin American revolution is probably by greed rather than liberalism. Spain placed many more trade restrictions on the colonies than Britain, so if you get some charismatic landowners to think that independence may be more profitable. Spain was also in gradual decline thanks to Habsburg inbreeding and horrible financial mismanagement (lots of bankruptcy), so it's possible that the wealthy may smell blood and strike while Spain is occupied, or has someone like Charles II on the throne.

According to Guillermo Sherwell's biography of Simón Bolívar: "But the distance from Spain to America was great, and when laws and orders reached the colonies, they never had the force which they were intended to have when issued". "Some regulations forbade Chile and Perú to send their wines and other products to the colonists of the North. The planting of vineyards and olive trees was forbidden. The establishment of industry, the opening of roads and improvements of any kind were very often stopped by the Government".

There should definitely be economic resentment to tap into, along with a feeling of distance from the mother country.
 
Maybe have some big general European war witch Spain participates in and witch leaves the Spaniards unable to exercise de facto control in the Americas (and maybe the Philippines). Have viceroys try (and succeed) to make the position hereditary and seize more power until they are only nominally ruled by Spain and the Spaniards lose their empire after the Viceroyalties declare their independence one by one. Have Mexico (or if it's still called New Spain) grab most or all of the former Viceroyalty of New Spain. at some point in maybe 1840 (don't know if there were any large wars that Spain was involved in).
 
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1. Have Andres Malong and Pedro Ladia meet and ally with Koxinga to expel the Spanish in Luzon and form a Kingdom that allies with Tungning in Taiwan, the other colonies might follow the precedent later.
 
One key problem with the Spanish and Portuguese colonies is not just that they were more feudal; they were more absolutist. Vast tracts of land were held by the elite, whereas in the English (and, to a much lesser degree, French) colonies, small holders were much more common. That's certainly a good recipe for unrest, but not a good recipe for an organized revolution, nor for a stable society afterward.

I remember a passage in Wealth of Nations where Smith comments that the most liberal and free areas in the Spanish and Portuguese colonies were the capitals, because thats where government agents could most easily check each other and the rule of the King was most solid. When you're relying on the authority of an absolute monarch to protect your liberty, your society's got a few cracks.
 
Maybe have some big general European war witch Spain participates in and witch leaves the Spaniards unable to exercise de facto control in the Americas (and maybe the Philippines). Have viceroys try (and succeed) to make the position hereditary and seize more power until they are only nominally ruled by Spain and the Spaniards lose their empire after the Viceroyalties declare their independence one by one. Have Mexico (or if it's still called New Spain) grab most or all of the former Viceroyalty of New Spain. at some point in maybe 1840 (don't know if there were any large wars that Spain was involved in).

Having the Seven Years War last a couple of more years might achieve this. Britain had seized Havana and Manila by the end of the OTL, and could easily have started eyeing up South America if the war had lasted longer - some local elites revolting because Spain could no longer protect them and they wanted to cut their own deal with the British might be doable.
 
How would you have the Spanish colonies in North or South America revolting earlier, winning, and establishing a stable nation? Is it possible with a POD after 1600?
In essence im asking how would you get a Latin American nation to take the place of OTL USA.

That wouldn't happen and the reason is quite simple: Spanish America was happy to be part of the Spanish Empire in the 17th and 18th centuries.

The reason why the European elite in Latin America fought for its independece was to topple the French supported king in Spain. And saddly to say, even today the ruling elite of most Latin American countries have more in common with Europe or the US than with the large mestizo, indigenous or black population they rule.
 
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