How would you have gone about modernizing China?

You are the emperor of China in the year 1510, you start to hear whispers about some of the advances the west has made in technology and namely in foreign travel.

You decide China must do everything it can to keep its position as the most powerful state in the world for the ensuing generations, what is your plan of action?
 
Whatever I´d try to do, I´d have to get around my neoconfucian advisers and magistrates, who are convinced that isolation is the best.

So perhaps I must do something that looks very confucian, but is going to do the opposite: perhaps putting social conventions about the Four Occupations into legal form (which looks like enforcing and enshrining them, but really makes them amenable to change at the same time) and convening some sort of General Assembly, divided by the four occupations. This way, at least the merchants and craftsmen, who might be interested in opening the country, would have a voice in public affairs instead of being drowned out by a neonconfucianist-educated administrative elite.

It would be difficult to openly support only the propositions of the lowest of the four occupations, so any reform act would have to be slow and careful.

Channeling some imperial funds and magistrates´ learning efforts into engineering and economics might be useful, but I can`t imagine under which Neoconfucian pretexts (encyclopaedism?) this might be sold to those on whom my power rests. Actually, there were modernisations under the Ming, like paper money, but they got rolled back. Hm.
 
First things first, you have to live for quite a while - at least a generation - and be prepared to seem like a tyrant. Because one of the critical things a reformist Chinese Emperor needs is the will to break gridlock in the highly-factionalized bureaucracy, which will quickly divide itself into pro- and anti-reform movements. Court officials need to know that you mean business and no amount of natural disasters/misfortunes/setbacks are going to throw out your reform movement... and if necessary, you will use your private army of eunuchs to carry out policy (which will earn you the worst reputation in Chinese history).

The longest-term change one has to make is probably changing the examination system and removing the strict adherence to Neo-Confucian doctrine. Throughout the Ming and Qing the rigid adherence to Neo-Confucian ritual did have a stultifying effect on innovation and this must go if China intends to stay in front of the pack (rather than playing catch-up later on). That said, one also has to acknowledge the stability engendered by the Neo-Confucian system.

Secondly, administrative reform. Ming local government was split into 3 separate branches for judicial, military and civilian affairs, with another 1-2 regional offices serving coordination roles. No reform can go anywhere with bureaucracy this thick, and so I would simplify the structure by unifying local administration under a provincial governor and maybe creating a separate structure for the military if I was that afraid of provincial independence movements. This is what the OTL Qing did, though I would probably cede some powers back to the provinces in an attempt to stimulate inter-province competition.

Third, state sponsorship for innovation. Patent laws would be nice but a more realistic institution might be state-sponsored competitions for various societal problems (e.g. cannon/ship production, agricultural tools), the winner of which gets awarded with state contracts. It's an idea that is at least as old as the Song Dynasty, and is probably necessary to stimulate modernization where there is no real economic incentive to do so (esp. as far as naval and armaments were concerned during the period).

Fourth, dump excess population. Rapid population growth and decreasing farmland per capita is always a problem for Chinese dynasties, so an aggressive resettlement/land development program probably needs to be on the cards if the dynasty is to remain stable enough for as long as it takes to reach industrialization. Colonial efforts also wouldn't hurt in terms of exposing China to new ideas and stimulating Chinese (rather than Western) overseas trade.

More minor points include: stopping Ming princes from re-appropriating excessive amounts of land, relaxing restrictions on speech, creating a more flexible system of taxes and civil servant salaries, establishing a war college to retain military expertise instead of relying on civilian amateurs.
 
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PhilippeO

Banned
Eh, to emperor in China at 1510 thought to "keep its position as most powerful state in the world" would not occur. Idea that southern barbarian is threatening to china would not even exist.

Suggestion :
- First, agree with profxyz, You should be a Tyrant. A brutal and bloodthirsty one. Ming ideology established by its founder is simply not suitable, you need to excessive violence to break precedent established by Ming founder, factionalism and scholar class domination.
- giving greater quota to Muslim in imperial examination ? Chinese Hui is loyal to Ming, less confucian, more involve in trade, and many come from NorthWest where military concern is more near.
- invite Western missionary and scholar as guest in your palace. there will be little opposition to westerner and their toy if it just for yourself, you could study some western advance from imperial pockets and make replica of Western technology.
- tolerate scholar-gentry class dabbling in trade, many scholar already make some minor praise to trade and "free market", encouraging more of this laizzez faire scholar could reduce regulation on commerce and trade.
- at the same time you need "stronger, deeper state". Tax people more, build infrastructure, get state more in involved in lives of people. Chinese state usually led "local families" handle local matter, this no longer acceptable create deeper bureaucracy, create one or two more level below prefecture or district, appoint bureaucrats to handle more "local matter", let them stay longer in their tour of duty. Use people who graduate from provincial examination as local official in each province, create more involved provincial government. as a bonus provincial official would be less involved in capital factionalism.
- manage faction ? allow party to form ? its perhaps will be less disruptive to government to have party in the open, patronage and ideology will naturally create faction anyway, as long as it can be managed.
- Strengthen Salt Office, or another specialist groups, they would create rival to "normal bureaucracies". let them have their own separate funding, promotion, and career.
- don't allow martyrdom culture to develop, chinese official sometime willingly accept punishment and exile to show their adherence to confucian precept, tolerate minor annoyance, but when act, ruthlessly destroy friend, family and protege of dissident official. don't allow official to have supporter who praise them as martyr.
- move Capital to Nanking ? nearer the coast, more merchant, less chance of successful invasion by nomadic tribe
- strengthen power of military governor ? Like an-lu-shan this could end in disaster but more independent military governor could make more effective military machine. Set region north of Yellow River to be virtually independent, tolerate hereditary succession as long as they militarily competent. Economically Hebei and Ordos is negative anyway, they need constant subsidy of money and food from central government.
- military commanderies in southeast coast ? reducing pirate influence, encourage more trade, absorb surrendering pirates to your navy, encourage better ship to protect southern trade.
- accept hereditary rule for military commanderies in periphery region, less power to scholar faction, allow for people who understand about local problem.
- expand the eunuch armies, use eunuch as intendant/inspector, military general and bureaucrats more. this could also backfire, but you need your own powerbase.
- don't depend on silver, force people to accept fiat money, and accept them as taxes
- protect the mountain, flooding caused by new American crops is helpful to the poor but disastrous to the nation. You need some flat area outside China to invade for the poor. encourage immigration to Manchuria and SouthEast Asia.
- destroy the Imperial clan, why waste money subsidizing your second and third cousin ? anybody further than grandson of Emperor should be considered commoners.
 
I don't think the Chinese nor the Chinese emperor would recognize western tech superiority until 1800s or 19th century. Before that, most of the time 1510 until 1800, China was at par or better than the west.

Even if we forward a decade from 1510, all we have in otl are western navies losing to Chinese imperial Navy.

There must be proof in application in Chinese eyes that western tech has surpassed Chinese tech like the Opium wars. But that hasn't happened yet in 1510.
 
You are the emperor of China in the year 1510, you start to hear whispers about some of the advances the west has made in technology and namely in foreign travel.

You decide China must do everything it can to keep its position as the most powerful state in the world for the ensuing generations, what is your plan of action?

Realistically I'd giggle at the notion that the Middle Kingdom is not all that and a bag of chips, since it'd take a couple hundred years for Europe to really start getting ahead and they're kind of a joke. But as a reformer:

Examinations reform: The examinations focus too much on literary and classics. I'd keep these as an element, as this helps bind our culture together, but I would add in technical elements. A true scholar is well balanced in their respective field after all. I would expand them to cover different fields, serving as a prototypical college program.

Military reform: The military is a tool of war; there is little to no point in having them farm or perform other tasks. A centralized army of professional volunteers will be the core of this army, and would be granted supplies via a centralized supply system. We have a large manpower pool though, and in times of danger a family must volunteer a son to the war, given compensation for doing this and a veteran's stipend should they die. Generals are encouraged to convey their lessons in War in studies and the like, and Generals must pass an examination that covers war to become a general.

Tax reform: A land tax would be in place in much of the country; in exchange, some of the proceedings is invested into the region in schooling and other services. In cities, an income tax would work instead, as well as a sales tax.

Trade: Merchants, while low on the totem pole must have their wishes fulfilled too, as a just ruler listens to all walks of life. To this end, I would encourage an open trade system.

And yes, I might have ripped off stuff from the KMT a bit and CCA's take on it in that TL where Jiang Jieshi goes to Germany.;)
 

abc123

Banned
I don't think the Chinese nor the Chinese emperor would recognize western tech superiority until 1800s or 19th century. Before that, most of the time 1510 until 1800, China was at par or better than the west.

.

Agreed. So, without industrialisation in the West, and that didn't happen before late 1700s, I really don't see the reason why would Chinese Emperor decide to do anything...
 

MrP

Banned
According to my Osprey book about late imperial Chinese armies (1520-1840), the Chinese were reverse-engineering Western cannons, which they regarded as superior to their own, as early as 1529.
 
- manage faction ? allow party to form ? its perhaps will be less disruptive to government to have party in the open, patronage and ideology will naturally create faction anyway, as long as it can be managed.
Problem is how to manage them?
- move Capital to Nanking ? nearer the coast, more merchant, less chance of successful invasion by nomadic tribe
- strengthen power of military governor ? Like an-lu-shan this could end in disaster but more independent military governor could make more effective military machine. Set region north of Yellow River to be virtually independent, tolerate hereditary succession as long as they militarily competent. Economically Hebei and Ordos is negative anyway, they need constant subsidy of money and food from central government.
- military commanderies in southeast coast ? reducing pirate influence, encourage more trade, absorb surrendering pirates to your navy, encourage better ship to protect southern trade.
The thing about the capital being in Beijing is that the government can control the army more--both to stop it from going on a mutiny and so that the government can relay orders to field armies on campaign much quickly.It's a great advantage.Overall,I'm incredibly skeptic as to how more independent military governors will do much.And yes,they should have totally opened trade,and tax them better too in order to afford a sizable navy.The thing about banning overseas trade is that it ended up encouraging more piracy.After increasing taxes,they should definitely increase the salary of the officials to high standards,so that they would have less incentive to engage in nefarious practices to gain money.

The Confucian text based Imperial exams should be totally scraped eventually and replaced with something more practical.They were basically producing officials who can argue well but have very little relevance towards actual governing.

- accept hereditary rule for military commanderies in periphery region, less power to scholar faction, allow for people who understand about local problem.
- expand the eunuch armies, use eunuch as intendant/inspector, military general and bureaucrats more. this could also backfire, but you need your own powerbase.
This one will definitely end badly.My impression is that the Ming Dynasty would look like the Tang dynasty if they tried this.


- protect the mountain, flooding caused by new American crops is helpful to the poor but disastrous to the nation. You need some flat area outside China to invade for the poor. encourage immigration to Manchuria and SouthEast Asia.
Agree.
- destroy the Imperial clan, why waste money subsidizing your second and third cousin ? anybody further than grandson of Emperor should be considered commoners.
If hereditary fiefs is to be given to individuals,it should be to imperial family members.They were reduced to figureheads that drained resources from the empire but does not contribute to it in anyway.The thing about given more power to princes in the fief is that they would manage the fief much better than officials appointed by the capital since it is their own property.It will also develop the skills of the emperors' sons to check who has the potential to be a good emperor.A good thing about Princes given more powers is that they can preempt military coups.While the power of these princes should be checked,Yongle went way too overboard due to his experience(being a prince that rose to the throne due to the military strength of his principality).
 
According to my Osprey book about late imperial Chinese armies (1520-1840), the Chinese were reverse-engineering Western cannons, which they regarded as superior to their own, as early as 1529.

The problem is that better ships or cannon do not, individually, paint a very convincing picture. So the barbarians have a few neat tricks. So what? As late as 200 years after the suggested POD, the Chinese showed themselves capable of smashing Western encroachments when they drove the Portugese off Taiwan. Without some rather devastating military defeats like in OTL, it's going to be hard to make the case to the bureaucracy that the military is in need of systemic reform.

That's actually a recurring problem in Chinese history. Something new and wonderful and advanced, like a better army, a great navy, or a great technology would be patronized by a particular emperor. Then, after he died, it would be targeted by one faction of the bureaucracy or another and wholly abandoned or demolished. China on one of its high ebbs has such a huge margin for error that they don't need the best of everything to survive.

Edit: In fact, maybe that's what is needed here? Institutional reform before anything else. Find some way to get people interested in foreign learning, trade, and the free exchange of ideas. Break the monopoly of the Confucian classics in ideology. Something, ANYTHING that can last after your death and won't instantly be villainized as the horrors of the Emperor POD.

One is tempted to say that you should convert to Islam or Christianity. That would at least get more foreigners and traders in the country, and Imams/Priests could provide a third power bloc to wield against the scholars and eunuchs.
 
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