Yes, and Germany took it back again during WW2.
Yes, but that was not debatable. What was debatable, were the (pre-war and pre-Anschluss) 1937 borders of Germany.
Yes, and Germany took it back again during WW2.
Oh noes the commies are gonna take overFor all of the people on here who want to cut Germany down to the smallest possible state that is possible here is some logic for you.
Do you really want Stalin to just be able to march right trough the ruins of western europe and have the Commies dominate europe? (minus Britain)
I personally dont believe that massive ethnic cleansing was required after the war to have peace. I also believe that WW2 could have been avoided.
To be fair, the displaced Germans actually ended up pretty well, certainly better than the Poles and Czechs they were killing during the warNow again, for all of the people who say expel millions of german civilians from there homes, you should read the book: AFTER THE REICH. The book describes how the expulsions were achieved and the process of how they began. It is a terribly sad and wonderfully informative book that should open your eves to one of the greatest crimes that has been perpetrated in human history.
Oh noes the commies are gonna take over
To be fair, the displaced Germans actually ended up pretty well, certainly better than the Poles and Czechs they were killing during the war
To be fair, the displaced Germans actually ended up pretty well, certainly better than the Poles and Czechs they were killing during the war
wiking said:-snip-
Realistically, nothing but "Southern Germany" is probably viable. The Allies (especially Roosevelt) were under the delusion that they just could remove German national identity from one day to the other and things would stick that way, and especially the idea if you keep "Germany" out of the name doesn't make things better...![]()
Actuallymajority of them were Nazi supporters. After the war they even included mass murderers like Hans Kruger to be their politicians.Many of the expellees leaders were previously dedicated Nazis, for example Oberlander who made statements like :The issue isn't that people were displaced per se, rather that they were innocent civilians
As to how I would carve up Germany? Eradicate Prussia completely and recreate old states alongside with cultural restoration of unique identities. Oder-Nysa line stays, but Sorbs are given their state as well. Germany is broken up into several smaller states like Bavaria, Hannover, Branderburg, Saxony. Break up southern states from northern ones by two seperate economical organisations and integrating southern ones with Balkan and Czech area.
Actuallymajority of them were Nazi supporters. After the war they even included mass murderers like Hans Kruger to be their politicians.Many of the expellees leaders were previously dedicated Nazis, for example Oberlander who made statements like :
The struggle for ethnicity is nothing other than the continuation of war by other means under the cover of peace. Not a fight with gas, grenades, and machine-guns, but a fight about homes, farms, schools and the souls of children, a struggle whose end, unlike in war, is not foreseeable as long as the insane principle of the nationalism of the state dominates the Eastern region, a struggle which goes on with one aim:extermination!
So, yes very innoncent indeed as seen by their political choices.Oh and German law is formulated in such way that people like Fritz Ries, who was sent to occupied Poland to oversee Jewish slave labour succesfully claimed expellee status.
As to carving up Germany, it was obvious that Gdansk and Upper Silesia and parts of Pomerania will be Polish once the war is over. Gdansk for obvious issues, Pomerania to make the border more defensive and Upper Silesia to deny Germans one of their major industrial regions useful in armament. If France and Britain would defeat Germany in 1939 then it is also possible that East Prussia would become Polish as well.
But overall for strategic regions its really doubtfull if Germany had any chance of keeping them after WW2 started.
Oder Line due to defensive value was also rather unavoidable in later parts of the war the question was Oder-Nysa or Oder-Nysa Klodzka, which would leave larger parts of Lower Silesia in German hands. Maybe if Poland would be allowed to keep Lviv that would happen.
It's quite certain though that East Prussia would be Soviet once Soviets gained upper hand-Russia had it before, and they desired a warm water port in Baltic.
As to how I would carve up Germany? Eradicate Prussia completely and recreate old states alongside with cultural restoration of unique identities. Oder-Nysa line stays, but Sorbs are given their state as well. Germany is broken up into several smaller states like Bavaria, Hannover, Branderburg, Saxony. Break up southern states from northern ones by two seperate economical organisations and integrating southern ones with Balkan and Czech area.
I don't want to offend anyone, but I think perhaps we are all (me too, I said that before, if not here, then in other places, but now I think I've blown it out of proportion) overestimating how much of a crime "forced relocation" (term's as good as any other) of people really is. See, my family was "forcefully relocated" too, from Volhynia. They didn't end up in Silesia or somewhere else, but in the even less developed region previously inhabited by Ruthenian/Ukrainian highlanders, Boykos. Still, neither of us (me and my family that is, and probably everybody I know from that place) wouldn't have it any other way (not the expulsion of the Boykos that is, but their arrival here), even most of the older people - and it's not the standard of living, since the place was, like I mentioned, even more underdeveloped.
Oh come on, you dont really want to compare that to the ethnic cleansing of Germans. And yes, that just IS the term, anything ELSE is ideologcially motivated verbal revisionism. Again: If that wasnt ethnic cleansing, what then was? And "relocation" implies a deal of organisation that just wasnt there. In most cases it was simply "take what you can carry and off on the road with you". In any case, the Polish relocations were much more organised and much more humane then what happened to the German populations, which endured nearly 2.5m deaths during the ordeal (a number disorganised programs would I thinkc ertainly not have been able to reach by the way) and that is why I said you cant compare it. With all the apologetism for said ethnic cleansing here I really cant see how anybody can say its been overestimated!
Mulder: IP bans have no effect with proxies and dymanic IPs around. Ian already learned this on the Old Board with nonny and hence doesnt do IP bans anymore.
Ethnic cleansing is never right. It's repugnant. However, in light of the horrors inflicted by the Germans that had intruded upon the lives of every Pole that was still very fresh in their minds, the manner in which the Poles treated the Germans after the Second World War is perfectly understandable.
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