How would YOU carve up Germany?

Snowstalker

The title says it all. If you had total control, how would you tweak the German border at the end of WW2?

I'd reverse all the expansions made in WW2, of course. The Saar would be a French protectorate (as in OTL) whose final fate would be later decided (likely returning to Germany) eventually. East Prussia would go to Poland entirely-no point in a Russian enclave (or exclave, whatever term is accurate). Germany would keep Silesia and Pomerania (which went to Poland in OTL), as well as Austria, which has no point in existing without the Hapsburg monarchy around.
 

Midas

I'd defer to a group of people more wise about the political ramifications of territory changes in that region :D. I would want German citizenship to recognize minority rights though, and promote the culture and language of any integrated non-German speaking peoples. Not obsessively but the acceptance should be there.
 

Whanztastic

Two Germanies - a Catholic, Austria-dominated Southern German Confederation and a Protestant, Prussia-dominated Northern German Confederation
 
Iori

Iori

Have Austria vote on whether it wants to become independent or remain part of a new reformed Germany.

Similarly hold votes in Silesia and Pommerania on a county (or whatever they were divided into) level on if they want to remain in Germany or join Poland.

Give South Schleswig to Denmark and hold a vote in Holstein on joining Denmark or remaining part of Germany (very high chance it remains German).

Give the French Saarland.

Make East Prussia an independent state.

Hold a Referendum in Danzig giving the option to either become fully independent or join the East Prussian nation.

Give the Netherlands some of the territory in the Bakker-Schut Plan.
 
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Iserlohn

Iori said:
Have Austria vote on whether it wants to become independent or remain part of a new reformed Germany.

Similarly hold votes in Silesia and Pommerania on a county (or whatever they were divied into) level on if they want to remain in Germany or join Poland.

Give South Schleswig to Denmark and hold a vote in Holstein on joining Denmark or remaining part of Germany (very high chance it remains German).

Give the French Saarland.

Make East Prussia an independent state.

Hold a Referendum in Danzig giving the option to either become fully independent or join the East Prussian nation.

Give the Netherlands most of the territory in the Bakker-Schut Plan.
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I agree to most of these points. However, the Saarland should remain a protectorate instead of being outright annexed and only the third version of the Bakker-Shut Plan should be used.

Btw, for those of you to lazy to look it up on Armenian Genocide, here is the map for the Bakker-Shut Plan, with the purple area being the tolerable version.

Bakker_Schut-plan.PNG
 

Dr. Luny

Starting with the '39 Borders I'd slice off the most polish areas of Pomerania and Silesia. The Sudetenland goes to Czechia. East Prussia becomes an SSR, but the German population isn't deported. OTL East Germany retains the rest of Silesia and Pomerania. France gets nothing. Austria and Bavaria, along with some of the more Catholic areas of Eastern Baden-Wuerttemburg become a neutral border state and the rest of West Germany becomes another state under Western influence. Oh and Denmark can have Schleswig.
 

Jimbrock

Hmm, I think first we would have to assume that the three powers getting zones are Britain, America, and the USSR as was originally the case OTL. East Prussia goes to Poland, while Silesia, Pommerania, and the rest of OTL East Germany becomes the Soviet Zone. Were there any Polish parts of Silesia? If so, give them to Poland. Austria plus Bavaria becomes the American zone (they can take Bremerhaven if they still want it) while the rest becomes the British zone. At least this is viable in the case of non-reunification, Poland is compensated for not gaining Silesia and Pommerania. And, I doubt this is possible, but ideally Germans would not be forcibly expelled or reprised upon in ex-German territories.
 

ctesiphon

It's the second time this came up, so, to clarify: at that time there were NO Polish areas in Pommerania. Well, unless you meant West Prussia, which is Pommerania for the Poles and West Prussia for everybody else, but I don't think so. The only areas in pre-war Germany that had a substantial amount of Poles were Upper Silesia, and southern part of East Prussia (most of them were Protestants and identified with the German state, the Catholics - more pro-Polish - inhabited areas around Allenstein and Stuhm only). That's it, and any plebiscite in Pommerania is pointless.

Jimbrock: Many Germans actually stayed in Upper Silesia, and many of those live there even now (many more left though, if you can leave Communist Poland for West Germany it's a nobrainer)
 

Susano

Banned
ctesiphon said:
Jimbrock: Many Germans actually stayed in Upper Silesia, and many of those live there even now (many more left though, if you can leave Communist Poland for West Germany it's a nobrainer)
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I wouldnt call it many. The Red Army let some Germans stay whose expertise was important for the coal mining and steel industry, but, well, yes, it werent many.

As for my take on it, of course Id say I wouldnt carve up Germany at all, but then Im biased ;) Ideally there also would have been no ethnic cleansing and the like, but with Stalin in the east, how realistic is that, really?

My map I once made for a slightly less bad territorial outcome for Germany:
https://www.alternatehistory.com/Discussion/attachment.php?attachmentid=56942&d=1226153282

I think the idea for occupation zones was that the French gain the Saar protectorate and the Rhineland as pictured as state on the map as occupation zone, but not South Baden. South Baden and Thuringia are additional parts of the American zone, and in return Stalin gets all of Austria. With the additional bonus effect that after teh fall of communism many Austrians might be for reunion with Germany for economical reasons :D
 

Jimbrock

ctesiphon said:
It's the second time this came up, so, to clarify: at that time there were NO Polish areas in Pommerania. Well, unless you meant West Prussia, which is Pommerania for the Poles and West Prussia for everybody else, but I don't think so. The only areas in pre-war Germany that had a substantial amount of Poles were Upper Silesia, and southern part of East Prussia (most of them were Protestants and identified with the German state, the Catholics - more pro-Polish - inhabited areas around Allenstein and Stuhm only). That's it, and any plebiscite in Pommerania is pointless.

Jimbrock: Many Germans actually stayed in Upper Silesia, and many of those live there even now (many more left though, if you can leave Communist Poland for West Germany it's a nobrainer)
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I thought so, because Upper (and presumably Polish) Silesia went to Poland after WWI and its aftermath, and IIRC there were plebiscites in southern East Prussia, but the option to remain with Germany overwhelmingly won (wiki puts it at about 98%).
 

ctesiphon

I need to clarify. The area where quite a lot of the German populace stayed is the part of Upper Silesia that was German in 1937. I's not many compared to the vast swathes of land annexed to Poland in 1945, but in that small area, it's quite a lot. Even now there are gminas with over 40% Germans in the Opole/Oppeln voivodship (10% ATM, but the area where Germans stayed was basically where there were local Poles, see map: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/62/German_Minority_Upper_Silesia.png). Jimbrock didn't know if it's possible for them to stay, well, it is, as these people show.

Why is the border between Brandenburg, Silesia and Pommern shaped like that? I mean, the historical 1919-39 one was ugly, but this one is even worse, wouldn't it be better to return to good ol' pre-partitions border? It has this nice angle, plus, you know, nostalgia. I'm not criticizing, just asking, there has to be some reason...
 

Susano

Banned
ctesiphon said:
Why is the border between Brandenburg, Silesia and Pommern shaped like that? I mean, the historical 1919-39 one was ugly, but this one is even worse, wouldn't it be better to return to good ol' pre-partitions border? It has this nice angle, plus, you know, nostalgia. I'm not criticizing, just asking, there has to be some reason...
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Basically, to give Poland more land, after they already got less than IOTL even with Königsberg and Lvwiovw :p (not shown on map) Polish. I mean, the Pommeranian border, at least the border of the province of Pommerania, really went very far out east. Its just easier to give this appendix to Poland. More Polish coast line that way, too. And that Upper Silesia would become fully Polish was rather clear, too. And in Lower Silesia and the Neumark Poland got some random bits of land.

Jimbrock didn't know if it's possible for them to stay, well, it is, as these people show.
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Meh, in isolated pockets, maybe... but I dont think theres any way to get Stalin to refrain from the large scale ethnic cleansing.
 

ctesiphon

You're right, very hard, still, if the territories would be small, it is possible IMO that they'd be allowed to stay, most of them would leave anyway. There's no need for Stalin and his slightly less evil henchmen to cleanse them if they weren't a threat.

Lvwiovw
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I suggest we start using Ilov, the Armenian name, it's neutral and adds a delicious humoristic twist:p
 
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