How would you actually defeat and conquer the USSR during WW2?

[Matt jones]

Hello!

What is actually needed conquer the USSR during WW2 or at the very least cripple the army or government? Be it Germany or another country attempting it.

Preparations? Long term strategy?

 

[David Floyd]

Logistics and strategic and tactical air superiority.

 

[Deleted member 97083]

Ally with the Belorussian and Ukrainian independence movements, and all anti-Soviet forces generally, and treat them as equals.

Also invade the USSR in April 1941 instead of June 1941.

 

[riggerrob]

WALLIES supply massive amounts of first-rate weapons early in the war. Russians are so busy un-crating American-made, British-made and Canadian-made equipment that they never erect factories to build first-rate tanks and airplanes.
At a critical point, WALLIES halt the flow of high-wear items like ammo, tires and spark plugs. The Soviet Army grinds to a halt.

 

[Pyramus]

If it's the allies taking out the Soviets after taking down the Nazis then the answer is obvious.
Don't fight the Nazis on the western front immediately, let them invade the Soviets.
Don't send any lend lease to the Soviets and let them fight a war of attrition.
If the Nazis squeak out a victory against Soviets the they'll be easily between after that. Vice Versa

 

[pattersonautobody]

Almost really happened in real life. Simply avoid the battle of britain and it is done. Or have the Germans sit on the Nerva River in 41 instead of over-extending Leningrad in 41, and Russia is probably out of the war by 43. Even going by the original Case Blue might lead to a Russian truce in 43 when the Russians do not have the oil for mobile warfare.

But, to really knock Russia out it must be done by the end of 42. Some combination of Leningrad falling in the winter of 41-42 and some things going more Germany's way (avoiding BoB or etc) which are not ASB would do it.

 

[Asp]

Ally with the Belorussian and Ukrainian independence movements, and all anti-Soviet forces generally, and treat them as equals.

Also invade the USSR in April 1941 instead of June 1941.

The Nazis wouldn't have done this because it conflicted with their core goals. Remember that defeating the USSR was not the end goal, it was a necessary condition to achieving the Reich's end goals, that of lebensraum, so the POD needs to dovetail with that.

To the OP; there's a pretty limited number of ways if you mean the Axis. Don't send in the Afrika Korps and build a ton of u-boats instead of Plan Z (which would reduce lend-lease amounts reaching the USSR). That might be enough.

While the Japanese declaring war on the USSR would be suicidally crazy, they actually were suicidally crazy, so maybe it's actually possible. Blockading Vladivostok would be helpful.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Focus on logistics. Ally with the Ukrainians instead of creating partisans in your rear.

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

Ally with the Belorussian and Ukrainian independence movements, and all anti-Soviet forces generally, and treat them as equals.

Unfortunately looting the conquered territory. especially of food, was essential to keeping the German army functional in the autumn - winter of 41-42. To feed three million German soldiers a proportionate number of former Soviet citizens had to starve. More had to starve as there was a food shortage in Germany & Europe in general that winter. Joeseph Harsch was present in Germany and western Europe the previous winter and described in his 'Pattern of Conquest' the strict rationing and numerous shortages of food in Germany, France, Belgium, & Netherlands.

Also invade the USSR in April 1941 instead of June 1941.

This gains early experience with unpaved roads & deep mud, and leads to contemplation of rivers in flood until early June. It also assumes the German army and air forces were ready in April. I've not seen any evidence they were.

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

... or at the very least cripple the army or government?

To just cripple the Red Army, then execute a more limited operation in the summer of 1941. The goal would be a line from Lenningrad to perhaps Rostov. In the autumn as the Wehrmacht runs out of steam open negotiations. Maybe the Soviet government will take the bait. If not you won't be much worse off than OTL.

... Be it Germany or another country attempting it. ..

In the case of the US there are the old DROPSHOT plans

 

[Deleted member 97083]

Unfortunately looting the conquered territory. especially of food, was essential to keeping the German army functional in the autumn - winter of 41-42. To feed three million German soldiers a proportionate number of former Soviet citizens had to starve. More had to starve as there was a food shortage in Germany & Europe in general that winter.

What if they only allied with the Baltic countries in particular, who didn't have much arable land, but their population could be recruited against the Soviets?

Joseph Harsch was present in Germany and western Europe the previous winter and described in his 'Pattern of Conquest' the strict rationing and numerous shortages of food in Germany, France, Belgium, & Netherlands.

Interesting, wasn't aware of that guy. I didn't know that American journalists were allowed to travel into Germany in 1941.

 

[Cryptic]

Ally with the Belorussian and Ukrainian independence movements, and all anti-Soviet forces generally, and treat them as equals.

Ironically, they would not of even needed to treat them as full equals. The Bolsheviks had brutalized enough of the Soviet population that many would accept being German protectorates or vassal states. In short, the Germans just needed to copy British India or French Algeria. Instead, the Germans went for untermenchnen (sp) policies.

As insurance against the day that the Soviet peoples tired of being German vassals, I think it would have been prudent for the Germans to divide Ukraine into three separate protectorates (Carpantho / Ruthenian, Western, and Eastern). Likewise, some occupied areas of Russia proper could be divided into Cossack hosts.

 

[sloreck]

To the extent allowed the Balts and Ukrainians did help the Nazis, especially when it came to implementing the Final Solution. If the Nazis are nice to these folks policy wise until the Soviets are defeated, which is possible, they can string them along for a while and then throw them under the bus. Of course this sort of thinking, basically "do whatever it takes to win the war and THEN trash the Untermenschen" was foreign to Nazi thinking. The effort put in to finding, transporting, and killing 6 million Jews (to say nothing of Roma & Slavs sent to camps) detracted severely from the war effort, and using them as forced labor in a more rational way would have been helpful. The "War Against the Jews" (title of a book by Davidowich), and by extension against other subhumans, was seen by the leaders as every bit as important and URGENT as defeating the Red Army. In spite of that you did have things like Vlasov, but Nazi policy never really rationally examined how best to win the war first. Once the Soviets are behind the A-A line and the west stalemated, then you can doublecross your former helpers.

 

[Deleted member 97083]

they can string them along for a while and then throw them under the bus. Of course this sort of thinking, basically "do whatever it takes to win the war and THEN trash the Untermenschen" was foreign to Nazi thinking.

Welll, they basically did what you said with Slovakia.

 

[KACKO]

Welll, they basically did what you said with Slovakia.

Not exactly. They didn't had time to throw Slovakia under the bus. Actually other way around. Slovaks jumped the bus themselves.
Slovakia served almost as model state of country under German influence. Even Slovak military involvement basically symbolic. 3 or 4 divisions against Poland but stopped their advance after reaching teritorry lost to Poland in 1939. 1 fighter squadron, 1 motorized division (more like brigade sized) and 1 security division. Slovakia had more military death while fighting on side of Allies (10 000 just in Uprising) while only few hundreds while fighting Soviets or few tens against Poland. Of course few thiusands Slovaks were captured in 1943. Most of them joined Czechoslovak Para brigade in USSR.
Interestingly captured Slovak members of Czechoslovak squadrons of RAF were treated by Germans as regular POW while Czechs as citizens of Reich (Protectorate) lived undet constant thread of military tribunal for treason and execution.

 

[Perkeo]

The Nazis wouldn't have done this because it conflicted with their core goals. Remember that defeating the USSR was not the end goal, it was a necessary condition to achieving the Reich's end goals, that of lebensraum, so the POD needs to dovetail with that.

The Nazis wouldn't be Nazis if they really fought a war of liberation for the easter Sowjet Republics, but they might pretend to do so: Come as liberators and immediately shoot all senior party members. Since under Stalin every leader is a senior party member, this means that they cannot govern themselves effectively so they get some "help" by the NSDAP.
And once the USSR is defeated, they show their real face...
It gives me a cold shiver how well this could have worked out.

 

[Catspoke]

I think # of railway bridges over the Vistula was an issue, leading to general supply problems regardless downstream, so build a couple more of those.

More aircraft (a Battle of Britain lite, or General Wever lives scenario). Baltic states had good runways room for more extra aircraft, useful in siege of Leningrad.

Avoid Crete and the aircraft losses there.

Attack 10 days earlier requires no Balkans or a Balkans lite scenario), 10 more days decent weather in 1941 is important.

Assume a two year campaign and plan accordingly.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Avoid Crete and the aircraft losses there.

Based on the post-operation analysis about what they could have done better, had they actually done those things, like focusing their strength at one airfield and overwhelming defenses there by concentrating drops and resources they could have won Crete at much less cost. The middle airfield, I forget the name, was much less well defended than the biggest field to the west and with proper air support and a concentrated drop they could have taken and held it pretty cheaply, then spread out to the rest of the island; even British armor supported counterattacks wouldn't have been able to dislodge them by the time they deployed.

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

...

Interesting, wasn't aware of that guy. I didn't know that American journalists were allowed to travel into Germany in 1941.

Harsh wrote for the Christian Science Monitor a series of articles on conditions in Europe. Publication was somewhat delayed as they items were not kind to the nazi government. i.e.: descriptions of corruption in the food rationing system, descriptions of the hardships in western Europe from Germany currency manipulation in the Occupied regions, descriptions of the Gobbels organization trying to manipulate foreign journalist through intermediaries. Its a more clear and cutting version of what others like Shirer were also reporting.

Initially the Germans tried to use journalists from neutral nations. As that gradually failed hostile journalists departed. Haresh left in the spring of 41. Last few Americans with passports left in December 41 AFAIK. Unsure how many or if any were detained & held during the war.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Harsh wrote for the Christian Science Monitor a series of articles on conditions in Europe. Publication was somewhat delayed as they items were not kind to the nazi government. i.e.: descriptions of corruption in the food rationing system, descriptions of the hardships in western Europe from Germany currency manipulation in the Occupied regions, descriptions of the Gobbels organization trying to manipulate foreign journalist through intermediaries. Its a more clear and cutting version of what others like Shirer were also reporting.

Initially the Germans tried to use journalists from neutral nations. As that gradually failed hostile journalists departed. Haresh left in the spring of 41. Last few Americans with passports left in December 41 AFAIK. Unsure how many or if any were detained & held during the war.

Weren't some American journalists imbedded with the German army during the 1940 campaign too?