How would the world see Brazil had it kept being a major economic power?

[Taimur500]

Lusotropicalism would probably be more attractive to Lisbon than OTL

Wealthier brazil with thriving intellectual scene and educational reforms allowing borader literacy might be cause for an early repudiation of lusotropicalism by brazilian intellectual as more black ppl rise to academia and start poking holes on theory pointing out systematic unspoken racism widespread in brazil.
Might be first step to actual racial democracy as freyre want brazil to be down the line ironically
Also if colonial officers not accountable to colonial ppl racial reform wont mean much
Funny thought: by some miracle portuguese empire reforms becomes democracy federalizes
We then see african domination of lusitanian politics and econimy to point where portugal agitate for end of such arrangement and breakdown of federation

 

[Gukpard]

A strong Brazil might be able to get the jump on China in terms of locking down investment opportunities in Africa. They could cast themselves as friends of the global south.

We did that on the late 2000s and early 2010s without the need to be strong but yes, I know that your point is that it would be stronger ITTL.

Wealthier brazil with thriving intellectual scene and educational reforms allowing borader literacy might be cause for an early repudiation of lusotropicalism by brazilian intellectual as more black ppl rise to academia and start poking holes on theory pointing out systematic unspoken racism widespread in brazil.
Might be first step to actual racial democracy as freyre want brazil to be down the line ironically
Also if colonial officers not accountable to colonial ppl racial reform wont mean much
Funny thought: by some miracle portuguese empire reforms becomes democracy federalizes
We then see african domination of lusitanian politics and econimy to point where portugal agitate for end of such arrangement and breakdown of federation

I cannot argue about the intellectual elite, but the populists from 1930 until 1964 were strongly pro Portugal.

 

[Taimur500]

We did that on the late 2000s and early 2010s without the need to be strong

And it led to nothing since our elite is ok with selling our country off to china so we have no industry to speak of to trade with africa, all that was only good to fill pocket of civil construction company that siphon money to cayman.

I cannot argue about the intellectual elite, but the populists from 1930 until 1964 were strongly pro Portugal.

I can only hope lusotropicalism dies the shameful death it deserve such idea delayed discussion of race relations in brazil for decades painted image of racial paradise that media loved to show as truth but in reality it was bullshit shoved racism deep under carpet so everyone can have black friend and be brown skinned but throw curriculum of black ppl in trash unless it construction worker or housemaid
This country where ppl with black grandpa is racist is a bullshit
Redenção de cam by modesto brocos shows well what racism is here

 

[jerseyguy]

This could have some cool social history butterflies if there's more cross-cultural contact between Brazil and the US. Maybe Disney will make some more films for the US where Donald Duck and Zé Carioca hang out.

During WW2, the US commissioned a series of Disney movies about Latin America as part of the Good Neighbor Policy. Donald Duck goes on a tourist trip across Latin America and meets José Carioca, a cigar-smoking parrot from Brazil, as well as several other cartoon characters who represent various Latin American countries.

 

[Taimur500]

This could have some cool social history butterflies if there's more cross-cultural contact between Brazil and the US. Maybe Disney will make some more films for the US where Donald Duck and Zé Carioca hang out.

During WW2, the US commissioned a series of Disney movies about Latin America as part of the Good Neighbor Policy. Donald Duck goes on a tourist trip across Latin America and meets José Carioca, a cigar-smoking parrot from Brazil, as well as several other cartoon characters who represent various Latin American countries.

Cross cultural contact pointless,without it happen in the otherside otherwise just Disney making presence in south america
Lets also talk about brazilian culture going to the usa like collab album between hoão gilberto and frank sinatra whose duo version of desafinado was apparently too seemingly gay for sinatra (two men singing a duet in a love song? Not happening in his worldview!)
Or brazilian new wave movies coming to the usa and carving a niche in hillywood doninated market maybe only in arthouse theatres at least, like keeper of promises for example

 

[Gukpard]

This could have some cool social history butterflies if there's more cross-cultural contact between Brazil and the US. Maybe Disney will make some more films for the US where Donald Duck and Zé Carioca hang out.

During WW2, the US commissioned a series of Disney movies about Latin America as part of the Good Neighbor Policy. Donald Duck goes on a tourist trip across Latin America and meets José Carioca, a cigar-smoking parrot from Brazil, as well as several other cartoon characters who represent various Latin American countries.

We could also have portuguese loanwords becoming american slangs, and without the collapse of the brazilian car industry maybe some models could show up on the american market.

We all know the epic Willys overland and how it bankrupted on the 60s... but only in the USA. JK brought many near bankrupt foreign companies here and the Willys continued producing cars and even making new models having his whole financial capital transfered here. Imagine on the mid 1980s the Willys reentering the american market?! That would be epic!

 

[GeographyDude]

. . . and without the collapse of the brazilian car industry maybe some models could show up on the american market. . .

I know you were saying at the beginning that the civic-military dictatorship took out massive loans so that there was an artificial boom in the late ‘60s and early ‘70s, such that if a person bought a VW Beetle or Karman Ghia pretty much anywhere in the Americas, it was highly likely to be Brazilian.

How about that 50-seat passenger jet which I think is made by a Brazilian company?

 

[Gukpard]

I know you were saying at the beginning that the civic-military dictatorship took out massive loans so that there was an artificial boom in the late ‘60s and early ‘70s, such that if a person bought a VW Beetle or Karman Ghia pretty much anywhere in the Americas, it was highly likely to be Brazilian.

How about that 50-seat passenger jet which I think is made by a Brazilian company?

Which jet?

 

[ShadowSpeaker]

Maybe have the 1964 coup not happen and make Brazil's economy more export oriented. The ISI model only focused inwards. JK buying up older industries will give Brazil something to work with and eventually improve. Anything is better than no domestic industry at all.

 

[GeographyDude]

Which jet?

I think Embraer

 

[The Byronic Hero]

Uh huh. Take away speculative-related things like most of the finance sector/inflated real estate costs from there. Nevermind things like costs related to the US healthcare system. The Us looks alot better than the reality on the ground shows.

Petrostates, tax havens and in the case of the us/uk/canada/australia overinflated finance sectors are great ways for countries' GDPs to look better. Think of them as being like being a shrimpy guy in a muscle suit.

Yep, the US' tech industry, post-industrial services, infrastructure, electronics and still potent industrial sector surely overinflate the value of the American economy.

Now how about rising crime and poverty in Brazil?

Please stick to the OP and leave the jingoism elsewhere.

 

[Gukpard]

Maybe have the 1964 coup not happen and make Brazil's economy more export oriented. The ISI model only focused inwards. JK buying up older industries will give Brazil something to work with and eventually improve. Anything is better than no domestic industry at all.

Francis Fukuyama wrote a few years ago that the level of de-industrialization and loss of economical independence of Brazil from the 80s until now is something unseen before in the history.

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

On the down side odds are Amazonia would be considerably more destroyed. I cant imagine a far more developed Brazil better preserving its rain forests, and the Amazon basin.

 

[Gukpard]

On the down side odds are Amazonia would be considerably more destroyed. I cant imagine a far more developed Brazil better preserving its rain forests, and the Amazon basin.

This is not my area, this is just a guess, so here it is: Wouldn't a more developed Brazil take better care of the rainforrest? First because there wouldn't be kleptocratic cliques of landowners on the congress, or at least they would have less power, and a more industrial focused Brazil would not be dependent on extracting basic goods from the rainforrest as it is now. With more brazilian cars there would be less need for brazilian pens, wouldn't?

 

[The Oncoming Storm]

This is not my area, this is just a guess, so here it is: Wouldn't a more developed Brazil take better care of the rainforrest? First because there wouldn't be kleptocratic cliques of landowners on the congress, or at least they would have less power, and a more industrial focused Brazil would not be dependent on extracting basic goods from the rainforrest as it is now. With more brazilian cars there would be less need for brazilian pens, wouldn't?

It obviously depends on a lot of things but ITTL Brazil is wealthier, less unequal and doesn’t have the levels of corruption of OTL then there could be stronger enforcement of environmental laws. Also if the favelas don’t exist or are much less extensive then there won’t be a large group of people wanting land. IIRC one of the objectives of opening up Amazonia was to provide land for people in the southern cities. If these people have nice houses and well paid jobs then they’re not going to give that up to go and live as farmers in a jungle. Also if Brazil has been wealthier althrough the 20th Century then you’d expect that it’s population growth would have begun to slow down a few decades before it did IOTL and it might have a lower population today.

 

[Expat]

Or brazilian new wave movies coming to the usa and carving a niche in hillywood doninated market maybe only in arthouse theatres at least, like keeper of promises for example

Cinema Novo had about as much penetration in the US as the nouvelle vague. But it's true the legacy hasn't lasted and it's less known these days. Which is honestly why I'm jumping on the thread, because you don't get much opportunity here to talk about how awesome it is

 

[Taimur500]

On the down side odds are Amazonia would be considerably more destroyed. I cant imagine a far more developed Brazil better preserving its rain forests, and the Amazon basin.

Dont see why not, soil profile of amazon not suitable for agriculture compared with other rainforests
Massive deforestation=desertification in Amazon
Better educated popular might mean smaller population as time goes on so less economic pressure
Agrarian reform in northeast means good part of ppl from there going south stay in the northeast instead of going to north or south
Military junta sendin ppl to north was desperate attempt at dumping poor people away without bothering large landowners like AC Magalhães (may he burn in hell) which was basically brazilian Ramzan Kadirov in his state of bahia.
Not to mention more vigorous attempts at north colonisation mean even larger native genocide.
Leftier government has better chance at keeping these ways of life.

 

[rfmcdonald]

If we are talking about a Brazil maybe 50% richer on a per capita basis, bringing living standards up to First World levels, then Brazil could indeed be more recognized as a world power. The details would vary depending on the exact POD, mind.

 

[Gukpard]

Dont see why not, soil profile of amazon not suitable for agriculture compared with other rainforests
Massive deforestation=desertification in Amazon
Better educated popular might mean smaller population as time goes on so less economic pressure
Agrarian reform in northeast means good part of ppl from there going south stay in the northeast instead of going to north or south
Military junta sendin ppl to north was desperate attempt at dumping poor people away without bothering large landowners like AC Magalhães (may he burn in hell) which was basically brazilian Ramzan Kadirov in his state of bahia.
Not to mention more vigorous attempts at north colonisation mean even larger native genocide.
Leftier government has better chance at keeping these ways of life.

Not even leftier, but anything saner than the OTL dictatorship that was a trainwreck from the beginning to the end.

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

Dont see why not, soil profile of amazon not suitable for agriculture compared with other rainforests
Massive deforestation=desertification in Amazon
Better educated popular might mean smaller population as time goes on so less economic pressure
Agrarian reform in northeast means good part of ppl from there going south stay in the northeast instead of going to north or south
Military junta sendin ppl to north was desperate attempt at dumping poor people away without bothering large landowners like AC Magalhães (may he burn in hell) which was basically brazilian Ramzan Kadirov in his state of bahia.
Not to mention more vigorous attempts at north colonisation mean even larger native genocide.
Leftier government has better chance at keeping these ways of life.

All that would be my hope, but perhaps i've grown cynical in 64 years.