How would the RN fare in a pre-WWI conflict against the USN and Kriegsmarine?

Devolved

Richter von Manthofen said:
Please don't refer to the German Navy as Kriegsmarine (KM) in a WWI and before scenario. rather call it Hochseeflotte.

If the only concern is Fleet vs Fleet - its UK any time prior and during WWI.

But UK would have to WIN the war not only at sea.

UK would have to rally all its dominions and India if it stands alone.

First thing to do for UK is to bring a massive army to Canada - as this is the only land border where a land battle is possible. This might lead to an early battle in the NA - the further West it is fought the better will the US navy perform (Fleets quickly lost their "power" when venturing further from homeports)

The Hochseeflotte probably will be confined to the NorthSea and Baltic sea due to the short range of her battle line, so in the Atlantic its US vs UK alone unless fighting near England.

UK might attack the Fillies from India/AUS and NZ...

The earlier the war is fought the lesser will be the impact of a "raider" campaign.

Subs might have no impact in a pre 1910 war.

Deciding factor will be the reaction of other nations...

Japan probably sides with the UK (Anglo Japanese treaty)
A-H with GErmany (will not change the naval balance)
France - Russia - depends how "cordial" the relations to UK are...
Italy - depends on which side France and or AH is
Turkey - won't matter ;)
Spain - after 1898 - might see a chance to get back the colonies from the US...
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Mexico may be tempted to join in too if it's able to.
 

Tizoc

It's been mentioned that UK merchant fleet would take heavy losses, but nobody considered what'd happen to US & German merchants fleets. Considering the advantage RN had in cruisers it wouldn't surprise me if the other side lost more merchants than UK.
 

MattII

The US has a merchant fleet? That's for trade goods I presume, because I'm pretty sure a country half the size of continental Europe has enough basic resources that it was go it alone if it needs to, especially once they add Canada in, which they almost inevitably will.

The whole thing really depends on which way France and Russia jump, if they side with Germany/USA Britain is dead, but if they side with Britain then there's a chance (not a good one probably, but still a chance) that they manage to stalemate the Germans in Europe and keep the US at arms length for a while.
 
metastasis_d

metastasis_d

MattII said:
The US has a merchant fleet? That's for trade goods I presume, because I'm pretty sure a country half the size of continental Europe has enough basic resources that it was go it alone if it needs to, especially once they add Canada in, which they almost inevitably will.

The whole thing really depends on which way France and Russia jump, if they side with Germany/USA Britain is dead, but if they side with Britain then there's a chance (not a good one probably, but still a chance) that they manage to stalemate the Germans in Europe and keep the US at arms length for a while.
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How about Germany/USA/Russia and France/UK/either Italy or A-H?
 

MattII

Not happening, France and Russia have a treaty, and both dislike Germany, while A-H Has a treaty with Germany.
 

AdA

what year exactly?

The Royal Navy held not only a quantitative, but also a qualitative edge over other navies until the dreadnought race began. While it's debatable wether RN dreadnoughts were better than later german classes (the consensus being that the British BB were superior and the British BC inferior), it's turn of the century ships were a lot better than the German ones, and better than the US ones. They also had a lot of them. So the RN of, say 1901, could keep the HsF bootled up in the North sea and destroy it if they tried to sortie in force, while at the same time maintaining a significant presence in the Atlantic to beat the USN.
 

Simreeve

BlondieBC said:
The most important change will be the lack of wireless on ships. Merchant raiding by cruisers/AMC will be a huge headache for the UK. For a UK Merchant ship to report a sighting of an USA/German merchant raider, the UK ship will need to make port, and then use the undersea cables to report the sighting.
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If this conflict is taking place right after the turn of the century, yes, but the closer we get to the OTL date of WW1 the more ships are likely to have wireless... although admittedly it's still probable that only the larger vessels and those used for carrying the most important cargoes are very likely to do so, unless & until the Admiralty insists.
 

MattII

sharlin said:
Aye AdA totally correct, British battleships were probably the best in the world at that time.
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The South Carolinas However, were better in a shooting match than were the British dreadnoughts of the time though, that centreline armament allowed them a full broadside without the risk of warping the structure, and the elimination of the wing turrets simplified the armour arrangement, although her armour was of the same style as that of contemporary vessels.
 
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sharlin

Banned
The Dreadnought layout Dreadnoughts could fire a full broadside without risk of hull damage too. They had no cross deck layout and although wasted weight with the wing turrets (the admiralty wasn't bold enough to try superfiring) the Dread was a better sea boat and more stable than the Carolinas and thanks to her tubine engines significantly faster.
 

AdA

Armoured Cruisers

If we keep this in before Fisher introduced the BC and made Armoured Cruisers obsolete, the USN armoured cruisers could have a important part to play in their intended role as commerce raiders. While the US predreadnoughts were not very impressive, with their secondary turrets on top of their main ones and built more for coatal defence than open seas action, the USN had very capable CA, arguably the best in the world at the time they were built.
So while the RN would arguably be able to win two separate fleet actions at the same time against the HsF and the USN btw 1900 and 1908, trade prtection would lead to some very interesting actions.
 

sharlin

Banned
Aye but the USN doctrine called for the ACs not to be merchant raiders but act as part of the battle fleet and form their own divisions in the line of battle to bulk out the line. The later USN pre-dreads were good ships, when they were not putting turrets on top of others but they were generally inferior sea boats to the RN's ships, built for the Pacific waters and more coastal waters on the atlantic and of course the carribean.
 

AdA

real life tatics

sharlin said:
Aye but the USN doctrine called for the ACs not to be merchant raiders but act as part of the battle fleet and form their own divisions in the line of battle to bulk out the line. The later USN pre-dreads were good ships, when they were not putting turrets on top of others but they were generally inferior sea boats to the RN's ships, built for the Pacific waters and more coastal waters on the atlantic and of course the carribean.
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The use of CA by the IJN in precisely that role might mislead the USN to use their CA in the Battle Line, something the RN would be very tankfull for, since that it would give them the best possible chance of sinking them all.
Given that the USN ships were as capable as the French CA, that were presented by the French Navy unashmedly as made for commerce raiding, one would expect somebody in the USN who could read french to prevail in war planning. Convincing Admirals to do the right thing in the days before we could distract them with colourfull power point slides would be difficult though...
Would congress pay for the ships if they were presented as commerce raiders?
 

Derek Jackson

Were not German Battleships designed for a shorter range, they would have struggle, even if not opposed to cross the Atlantic to join US allies?
 

AdA

POD changes?

The German predreadnoughts would have very litte chance of forcing their way out of the GIUK gap into the Atlantic. Slow, shortranged and underarmed, they would better deployed close to their bases as a fleet in being to tie up a part of the RN battle Fleet. If we consider a German/US alliance, something very strange in itself, unless we conjure up a form of "World Commerce vs Colonialism" doctrine for their two expanding industrial economies, we must conjure up a stronger HsF earlier, and we must also speed up the service entries of the USN CA. Launched in 1903, they only comissioned in 1906/8. To late to be really usefull, given that the I class was entering service by then.
So a POD in 1895 that leads to a US/German naval alliance, a better HsF and all the Tenesse and Pensylvannia class CA ready for action for a war starting in 1906?
Colonialists vs Free traders? Somebody needs to give the Kaiser one hell of a power point presentation.
 
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